2018 Giro

Discussion in 'Cycling: Mountain, Road, Uni and E-Bike' started by Tom K., May 26, 2018.

  1. Tom K.

    Tom K. HRPufnStf Skier

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  2. Primoz

    Primoz Out on the slopes Skier

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    Almost on pair with Landis TdF 2006 stage to Morzine. I guess we all know how that ended, except that in Froome's case it shouldn't even started considering he shouldn't be on start after last year's positive test. One good comment on that is from George Bennett (Lotto Jumbo) ;)
     
  3. JohnnyG

    JohnnyG Booting up Skier

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  4. scott43

    scott43 Making fresh tracks Skier

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    As Sean Kelly said.."unbelievable". It's unfortunate that he is tainted with drug accusations..it's like I'm reading the Contador/Armstrong book all over again.. Ah well.. I'm sure he's not the only dirty guy out there so there is that.
     
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  5. Eleeski

    Eleeski Out on the slopes Skier

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    Fantastic ride by Froome! Regardless of anything.

    And his issue should not be public and he IS allowed to ride. Or are those rules not to be followed because we don't believe/trust athletes.

    Bennett's comments were revealing. He clarified that it was not a condemnation of Froome. There have been only a few such rides in cycling history. Landis' was one of the most recent and impressive. I wonder if all current riders hope to pull off a "Landis" and gain a massive but improbable advantage.

    Congratulations to Froome for an incredible ride - regardless.

    Eric
     


  6. Primoz

    Primoz Out on the slopes Skier

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    @Eleeski we went through this few times already ;) You have some sympathy for asthmatic patients and as Froome all of a sudden developed serious asthma all is cool. His A and B sample were positive, and with every other athlete he would be serving his doping ban, but he and Sky are exceptions and he can ride with positive doping test like nothing would happen. True, he is allowed to ride, as UCI didn't issued him doping ban (yet), even though they should in first second when A test returned positive.
    But yes, incredible ride. But if we are going to praise Froome's ride, I have no idea why there's so much shit over Armstrong, Landis, Hamilton, Contador and other doping offenders. They all played exactly same way as Froome, they all got caught, except for Armstrong who never tested positive (paying to keep positive tests doesn't matter, as officially his samples were negative) yet all of them are bad guys, but Froome is just impressive. Because he developed life threatening asthma during last years Vuelta (and pretty much every other disease known to mankind in last 4 or 5 years)?
     
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  7. fatbob

    fatbob Out on the slopes Skier

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    It was incRedible but I think I'm now kinda at "meh" with any pro-cycling achievements. It's a "sport" that has destroyed its own credibility over time because of the cynicism associated with doping. So for me it's now like WWE or F1. Enjoy the show but accept it's never going to be a "fair" head to head sport. Which is a shame because the degree of athletic endeavour is extreme.
     
  8. Eleeski

    Eleeski Out on the slopes Skier

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    @Primoz you've judged him guilty. But your premature judgement violates the rules as much as any drug cheat. Public opinion is not evidence.

    @fatbob F1 and cycling have a lot of competitive similarities. Lots of people enjoy F1 (wasn't the highest paid athlete recently a F1 driver?). Lots of people enjoy cycling (Froome was courted by the Giro with a huge appearance bonus - he should voluntarily walk from that?). It is real competition. Maybe not fair if Mercedes builds a better car or Sky buys the strongest team but the performances are real and valid.

    WWE is entertainment only and always has been (although my stuntman son knows the athleticism needed to put on that show) - no competition there.

    Merckx had drug violations. Before a focus on drugs. Relatively ancient history. Hopefully you can still consider him one of the best ever. Festina, a while ago, was way worse than Lance. Things have gotten much better. So much better that the scandal now is about legal therapeutic medicines used months ago!

    No matter what, Froome's ride was spectacular. He earned my congratulations.

    Eric
     
  9. SShore

    SShore Resident Curmudgeon Skier

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    Fixed it for you.
     
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  10. scott43

    scott43 Making fresh tracks Skier

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  11. cantunamunch

    cantunamunch Meh Skier

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    I notice you don't mention :D FIFA :D - an especially interesting omission as we're only two weeks out from Mundial 2018. In Russia.
     
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  12. Eleeski

    Eleeski Out on the slopes Skier

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  13. Primoz

    Primoz Out on the slopes Skier

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    EPO is perfectly legal drug. It's used to treat anemia. It's "a bit less" legal when used to improve your sport performances. Same goes for salbutamol or corticosteroids. Perfectly legal when used for treating diseases, but "a bit less" legal when abused as doping.
     
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  14. fatbob

    fatbob Out on the slopes Skier

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    I pick my examples deliberately, WWE is entertainment that is "real" to fans because they choose to set reality aside while they are watching and accept the soap opera as reality. F1 has always been pretty weird, it attracts a lot of fans who have no interest in any other sport (I postulate that that's because there is a geeky side to it that non sporting people can get into) but it has always been part soap opera and dictatorship trying to tweak the "product" for maximum commercial benefit. Yes the drivers are racing on the track when they are in broadly equal vehicles but very few sports would have the front tolerate something which is as much of a foregone conclusion as the Monaco GP (where any suspense is provided by the decomposition of rubber).

    Cycling for all of its grubby past we are invited to believe that it has all changed but again I ask are we not recognising reality? It's a interesting "product" for sure full of stories of tradition and history and daring do, with tactics and alliances and minor dirty deeds and full on argy bargy. I might even say its like Game of Thrones on wheels (with a lot of boring filler spinning out along flat but scenic roads). But I think I now believe I'm watching a product with high production values but not quite the real thing.


    As for FIFA, yep a corrupt and avaricious organisation. As to the actual game being bent less so in most cases. Certainly doping is less of an issue I believe than in all the major US sports.
     
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  15. SShore

    SShore Resident Curmudgeon Skier

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    Are you serious, which is worse, an asshole or a cheat. You don't have to like an asshole, but it isn't "illegal". That is what pisses me off the most about the whole Lance situation, If he would have been just a cheat he would have gotten the slap on the hand everyone else got, but because he was an asshole supreme, he was crucified. Cycling almost destroyed itself because it felt it couldn't let it's big star be exposed as a doper. Now it is protecting Froome also. Too bad it hasn't learned it's lesson.
     
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  16. Eleeski

    Eleeski Out on the slopes Skier

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    Where are you digging this crap up? Froome is not a cheat. He has asthma and gets approved medicine for it.

    But you guys are all MDs with specific knowledge of the physiology of salbutamol metabolism. And have never had to deal with an asthma attack.

    EPO? Where did that come from? Sky prejudice? Of course, with a TUE even EPO is valuable medicine for an anemic athlete. Or are "real" athletes not allowed to have asthma, anemia or other diseases?

    I'd rather have Froome as a teammate than Hinault. Sportsmanship matters. While cheating is at the highest level of poor sportsmanship, racing with asthma is not particularly heinous. Protecting your legacy by lobbying to get a competitor disqualified is detrimental. Fuels the cynicism that's too prevalent.

    Pinot is in the hospital with serious pneumonia (a fever of 40c is serious). Would better medical care and a less restrictive WADA drug policy have prevented that? Maybe. It's wrong to have the stars of a sport destroyed - just so we can have a "level" playing field (in a world where the bike technology, training technology and so many other factors are restricted to the rich elite).

    I don't want to see athletes dying in competition or ruining their health from abusing drugs. That's why drug testing needs to be in place. That has been a problem in the past. But judging by the attitudes of people pre judging Froome, the drug issue has gone a long way from that. Too bad it's clouded some people's ability to enjoy and appreciate an outstanding performance.

    Eric
     
  17. Primoz

    Primoz Out on the slopes Skier

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    Ok let's get few things straight. Until last September, Froome nor his team, doctors and guys writing books about him with him, never ever even mentioned asthma. Last September he had really bad one... all of a sudden. But pretty much everyone are used to this, as he, and another pretty good ex-Sky guy called Bradley Wiggins, out of nowhere develop life threatening allergy reactions... accidentally every time exactly 2 weeks before biggest race. Sky is obviously pretty good picking their top riders... obviously one criteria is to must have life threatening disease (Froome had several till now, and I'm sure few more are coming in next years).
    Second, he didn't do anything else then blatantly cheat. It's pretty much impossible to get over limit yet he managed to get twice over already super high limit. Based on my knowledge, he's the only guy who failed test this high above limits. There's few other cyclists who went over limit, but all had at max half less then Froome did. Yes, I know, his kidneys failed during that stage. I mean it's perfectly normal explanation, and it happens all the time that kidneys fail and you just happen to win queen stage of grand tour with failed kidneys.
    About "better medical care and less restrictive WADA"... maybe better option then opening TUE to even more abuse is simply go to hospital when you are sick, not that you sit on bike and ride through half Italy at your max pace. If someone asks me, TUE for competitions should be gone completely. If you are sick, you have nothing to do in sport. Come back when you are fine. TUE should still be for out of competition, as you can get tested even when laying in hospital, and that's fine, but if you need TUE, you are not going to start. You can call this discrimination or whatever you want, but if you are so for "more health for athletes" you would actually agree with such thing. Unless we are not really for this, and just want to get some advantage out of current TUE system. Then I'm sure my suggestion is stupid idea ;)
     
  18. Eleeski

    Eleeski Out on the slopes Skier

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    Paraphrasing Ambien when responding to Roseanne, "racism is not a side effect of Ambien"; understand that professional bike racing is not a side effect of salbutamol.

    Wow, "if you need TUE, you are not going to start" is misguided and insensitive. Athletes have passion and drive. If every treatable issue requires disqualification then we'd always be depressed on the couch recuperating. And professionals would starve. TUE stands for therapeutic use exemption. It has doctors prescribing proven treatments that are reviewed by the athletic governing body so the athlete can continue competing.

    The career of a professional athlete is very short. Take away a couple earning opportunities that are therapeutically manageable and there is a huge effect on an athlete's career earnings. Froome was paid a hefty appearance fee just to enter the Giro. Rare opportunities. It's unfair when competitors manipulate opinion to exclude their competition.

    But the "righteous" pitchfork wielding mob wants to burn careers?

    Over what? Medicines that are widely used and quite safe. With trivial performance gain (if any). That are effective at treating real medical conditions.

    Many things are wrong in sports. Barriers to entry, judging prejudices, inequalities in prizes, equipment technology advantages and many more issues exist. Legal and accepted. Far greater impact than therapeutic medicines.

    It took me a long time to be able to calmly write this response. From a young age, I suffered from severe arthritis. I use medicines to compete - and just function. I was able to compete in a World Championship event with a TUE so your TUE ideas are totally wrong in my experience. I feel personally targeted when medicines are branded as cheating. Many drugs were unavailable for my father and grandmother who were both crippled by arthritis - so pardon me if I'm protective about treatment options. My personal go to drug is naproxen. It is (like salbutamol) an allowed, commonly used and relatively safe drug. Absolutely performance enhancing for me. Absolutely not wrong - for me or sports.

    Eric
     
  19. Primoz

    Primoz Out on the slopes Skier

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    I wrote this before and I will again. So based on this, it's perfectly fine for me to have cure or 20 of HGH as I'm otherwise nowhere near size of NBA player and it's really not fair, I wouldn't be competing as center in NBA just because of my "disability" (read: being only 181cm and not 215cm). Another same one... Lance had perfectly fine reason for EPO use. His blood values were too low, and it was totally unfair, he would need to ride with such values, so EPO wasn't really cheating, it was purely health issue, no cheating intended. Was it performance enhancing? Sure, but it was just to allow him complete in field where he wanted to compete.
    Yeah I know this sounds completely ridiculous, but it's completely on pair with your excuse for TUE abuse. ;) Like it or not, life is not fair, and if you have some issue, you won't become World champion... unfortunately. Everything else is cheating, and TUE abuse is cheating (if you consider doping as cheating, which I personally don't but I would still want to have same rules for everyone, not that someone gets year ban, the other get's appearance fee to show at race for same offense).
     
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  20. Eleeski

    Eleeski Out on the slopes Skier

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    The great fallacy that seems to be presented is that you can take HGH and become an NBA center - or as an adult even gain height. And if you give your kid HGH and he grows to an above average height he probably won't become an NBA center - like most tall people who aren't NBA centers. Same with EPO and an elevated blood count in endurance sports. EPO was developed for anemic cancer patients. Perhaps if Lance had gotten a TUE he'd still have his titles. Competing with a TUE is not cheating, never had been and hopefully never will be.

    And certainly the allowed medicines an asthmatic Froome takes are not the reason he excelled at cycling. An improperly leaked result for a premature public opinion trial is really the only way the rules have been applied differently in Froome's case.

    Eric
     

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