2018 Formula 1

[MountainMonster]

 

[Erik Timmerman]

Makes me miss the V10s.

 

[TheArchitect]

What a BS penalty on Vettel. They gave the race to Mercedes.

 

[SShore]

What a BS penalty on Vettel. They gave the race to Mercedes.

Not BS at all. His argument of where else was he suppose to go is BS. On the face of it, maybe he didn't have anywhere else to go, but the reason he didn't is because he screwed up and drove off the track in the first place. And he did it because of pressure from Hamilton behind.

It really doesn't matter in the end if he had no where else to go, He DID renter the track in the racing line, impeding another racer in an unsafe matter, end of story. Instead of blaming the stewards for a bad call, he needs to blame himself for getting into that position to begin with.

 

[SShore]

To me, the most under-discussed incident in that race was a big piece of torn carbon fiber getting hurled into Grojean's cockpit. That is pretty scary. Fortunately the speeds were pretty low at that point, but if he had of been at full speed that could have been horrible.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

I think the penalty was BS. He was in the act of saving the car. There were walls on both sides of the track, his tires were covered with grass, he was still on opposite lock as he "re-enterd" the track. I also thought it was really two faced of Hamilton to be saying on both the radio and in his interview that he didn't want to "win this way", when at theme of the incident he was protesting it via team radio. I hate the way that the drivers now use the team radio to lobby the FIA and to try and sway the fans. IMHO the penalty was an absolute farce and debases F1 to an even lower low.

 

[scott43]

I think the penalty was BS. He was in the act of saving the car. There were walls on both sides of the track, his tires were covered with grass, he was still on opposite lock as he "re-enterd" the track. I also thought it was really two faced of Hamilton to be saying on both the radio and in his interview that he didn't want to "win this way", when at theme of the incident he was protesting it via team radio. I hate the way that the drivers now use the team radio to lobby the FIA and to try and sway the fans. IMHO the penalty was an absolute farce and debases F1 to an even lower low.

Meh..I'm not a fan of either..but I can see their point..if you straight-line the chicane and maintain an advantage that's not really fair. You left the track surface and there should be a penalty. As for Hamilton..yeah..haven't been a big fan for a while..he's better than he used to be..but..some things are built-in...

 

[SShore]

I think the penalty was BS. He was in the act of saving the car. There were walls on both sides of the track, his tires were covered with grass, he was still on opposite lock as he "re-enterd" the track. I also thought it was really two faced of Hamilton to be saying on both the radio and in his interview that he didn't want to "win this way", when at theme of the incident he was protesting it via team radio. I hate the way that the drivers now use the team radio to lobby the FIA and to try and sway the fans. IMHO the penalty was an absolute farce and debases F1 to an even lower low.

Yes, that is all true, but to me it only reinforces that he entered the racing line in an UNSAFE manner. That is what he was penalized for. If he hadn't run off the track in the first place he wouldn't have reentered the track in an unsafe manner.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

Racing is not SAFE. What would you have had him do, Lock his brakes and slide across the grass into the wall? Other than unsafely re-entering the track that's about his only option.

I'd be fine if race control had told him to cede the place to HAM. Then they would have had 20 or 30 laps to race. As it was, the 5 second penalty sealed the outcome, there was really no reason to watch the rest of the race.

btw - I think there is a 2019 F1 thread.

 

[SShore]

I completely agree that he probably had no other choice to do other than what he did. That doesn't negate the fact that he violated the rule about an unsafe reentry. His mistake was going off the track to begin with. Had he not done that, he would have won the race. When the rules say you can't unsafely reenter the track, it doesn't matter if it was your only option or not.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

So let's have them drive even more cautiously, never leave the track, save the tires, save the brakes, save fuel. I think I'd stop watching.

 

[SShore]

Not at all, but you take the risk and you suffer the consequences. Again the reason he went off in the first place is because of the pressure Hamilton was putting on him. As is not unusual for Vettel, he feels the pressure and cracks. The bottom line is rules are rules, and his reentry violated them.

 

[LKLA]

The call was the correct call - it follows the clearly stated rules. And, Sebastian, Lewis, Mattia, Toto,...are all keenly aware of what the rules are and what the consequences are if they break them.

Regardless of whether it is done on purpose or not, if a car re-enters the track in an unsafe manner forcing another driver to take any type of evasive action, it is a violation of the rules. The rules state the driver must look before re-entering to avoid any impact of any kind on other drivers. If you have ever raced you would appreciate that Sebastian recovers on the inside and then lets go of the wheel so that he can get to the outside of the track in the same racing line as Lewis.

Btw, this is not the first time(or second, or third, or...) that we have seen this type of incident - an almost identical situation took place in 2011 between Sebastian and Button.

Another discussion/issue/matter is whether some rules, such as the one that impacted this race - should remain. Interestingly enough, if you have ever saw Toto race you would know he would rather get rid of these rules even though in this case it would negatively impact his driver.

 

[cantunamunch]

Does anyone else think Sony should sign George Russell to recap all Toby Macguire's roles ?

 

[TheArchitect]

Not BS at all. His argument of where else was he suppose to go is BS. On the face of it, maybe he didn't have anywhere else to go, but the reason he didn't is because he screwed up and drove off the track in the first place. And he did it because of pressure from Hamilton behind.

It really doesn't matter in the end if he had no where else to go, He DID renter the track in the racing line, impeding another racer in an unsafe matter, end of story. Instead of blaming the stewards for a bad call, he needs to blame himself for getting into that position to begin with.

I disagree with you and LKLA. He didn't regain control while on the grass and then re-enter the track. He was still trying to regain control while his momentum carried the car off the grass and back onto the pavement. I'd agree with you if he had the car straightened out on the grass first, but that didn't happen.

 

[raytseng]

I read this and a bunch of other forums, and I think the root of the issue is ulitmatly arguing two different viewpoints of what the role of stewards are the "rules" and regulations should be versus on-track racing.

A lot of people will say that when Vettel did come back on track, he did come back quite "competitively" with elbows out and did gain some kind of "advantage" in the recovery of his "mistake" whether he was in control or not; he started racing pretty fast, vesus ceding a place for messing up.
It cuts to the core of what is a racing? When a mistake is made, should the capitalization on the mistake have to be earned on the track or should penalty be also backed up by rules/regulations. I suppose the answer they say is sometimes one and sometimes other, and it's for the stewards to decide.
Unfortunately, the core of the issue is F1 racing specifically is so stepwise in results with so little passing; that any "penalty" either has zero effect, so when they do have an effect it ends up being a huge effect and the stewards are hamstrung in what penalties they can give out.
Then, most of the time with this same type of mistake, they don't have to investigate, because 99% of the time "no advantage" is gained, as the places are not at risk, but the one time it does is when it comes down to a decision that nobody is happy with.


If Lewis is faster, why couldn't lewis pass vettel easily at another spot and make it official. If Vettel is faster, why doesn't vettel pull away by 5sec. The sport is broken when there is so few opportunities to make a difference.

 

[LKLA]

I read this and a bunch of other forums, and I think the root of the issue is ulitmatly arguing two different viewpoints of what the role of stewards are the "rules" and regulations should be versus on-track racing.

No need to read a bunch of forums - the rules are clear (have been in this case for a long time).

Seb went off and re-entered in a way that had a negative impact on Lewis (Lewis had to step on the brakes and slow down significantly). Whether that is a fair rule or not, whether it makes for more exciting racing or more boring racing, whether it tends to favor one profile of driving over others...those are all completely different issues (many of them valid issues/concerns).

Sebastian gained by keeping first place while under attack by Lewis and Lewis suffered by having to brake and thus be prevented from passing Sebastian. It is as clear as can be that Sebastian's error impacted both drivers.

And, it does not much matter if it was a mistake. Maybe Lewis caused it or maybe Sebastian just had a brain fart (Seb has been know for both). Maybe a pigeon flying by causes it next time. It does not matter. Once you exit the track and re-enter you have to do so by the rules. It does not matter what Sebastian's intentions were. What matters is what ended-up actually happening.

Lewis was only faster at that moment due to difference in the tires. He would have been slower a lap or two later. Again, pointless to go down that rabbit hole as rules are not interpreted on hypothetical situations.

The sport is not broken - at least not on the basis of viewership. It was up over 10% last year by that metric. Many sports, including skiing, can only dream of that growth. What F1 is focused on is on making safety the number one priority, for the drivers first and for spectators second. Anyone who has ever raced or been to dozens of F1 races would appreciate this, to say the least.

 

[LKLA]

I disagree with you and LKLA. He didn't regain control while on the grass and then re-enter the track. He was still trying to regain control while his momentum carried the car off the grass and back onto the pavement. I'd agree with you if he had the car straightened out on the grass first, but that didn't happen.

You could argue the same thing - it was unintentional / does not make a difference - when asked why you have a rear wing that is 1 centimeter higher than the rules allow or why your tires have 5 millimeters deeper tread than the rules allow. F1 rules have to be objective, not subjective. Are there rules we wish did not exist? Sure! Are there rules we wish did exist? Sure! But the rules are very clear in this case (as they are in most cases in F1) and so was the end result - Lewis had to step on the brake and slowdown due to Sebastian re-entering. Thus, Sebastian gained an advantage - in this case by holding onto his position while being under attack, AND, Lewis was negatively impacted having to step on the brakes and slowdown and not be able to pass Sebastian.

Take a look at the the rules, or, go back and watch other races where the same / similar situation has occurred. It was the right call by the race directors. The fact that you do not agree with it does not make it wrong. The fact that I wish Seb had won to keep the championship halfway interesting does not make the decision wrong. Do not confuse opinion with fact - unfortunately too often the case around here

Btw, NO ONE can straighten an F1 car on grass! And if he would have been able to do such an amazing feat then more reason for him to have re-entered the track on the inside! Seb regained control once he was back on the track, at which point he let go of the steering wheel (on-board camera shows this) so that the car would "drift" towards the outside, which he knew was Lewis' racing line. Which frankly was the smart thing to do in Seb's position!

 

[Erik Timmerman]

These drivers know BS when they smell it.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/vettel-penalty-social-media-reaction/4461262/

 

[fatbob]

I think the point you are all missing is that F1 is essentially WWE for engineering nerds. Vettel had choices to make that included not lifting off when he'd cocked up that made the rest of his arguments a bit of a stretch. If he impeded Hamilton who hadn't left the track then that's what stewards are for. They made the choice which created the most drama including the comedy in parc ferme. Job doen for an entertainment business.

If it had gone the other way Hammy would have been bratting it up equally.