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Cage Match Comparison 2017 Head Supershape Rally vs 2017 K2 Super Charger

chemist

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These are somewhat arbitrary, but some of the definitions above do not correspond to the terminology as I've generally seen it used. Here are, I believe, some more precise definitions:

DELTA: Heel height - toe height, measured at the contact points with the boot (heel at most rearward end of contact area, toe at most forward end of contact area); generally given in mm. The advantage of using delta is it allows a single specification for each binding, since this doesn't vary with BSL (that's why the mfrs. use delta instead of ramp angle). It's called delta because the greek letter ∆ (delta) is used in science and engineering to specify a difference. E.g, ∆E means the difference energy between two states.

Elite racers will sometimes adjust their deltas depending on the event, but most good recreational skiers will want to find a single delta at which their fore-aft balance is optimized in all conditions (this is boot-specific, but is essentially independent of what ski you are using). @bud heishman can confirm this, but most good recreational skiers need to have their delta right to within 1 mm to have their fore-aft balance dialed in. Once you've found it, ideally you want to use it on all your skis. But what happens when you buy new boots? Well suppose your optimum delta was 4 mm in the old boots, and your bindings were all likewise conveniently 4 mm. But then you buy new boots in which you need a delta of 2 mm to be balanced. In that case, you don't want to shim all your skis; instead you just gas-pedal the new boots by 2 mm.

[I'm very sensitive to fore-aft balance because mine's currently messed up -- my alignment specialist and I have concluded I can't achieve it it my current boots, so I have to get new ones!]

RAMP ANGLE: The angle of the boot's outer sole that results from the delta (i.e., I've generally seen it used to refer to the external angle, not the internal bootboard angle, which is referred to as "zeppa"). Ramp angle = arcsin(d/x), where d is the delta and x is the distance between where the heelpiece and toepiece contact the bottom of the boot (and is thus less than the BSL, though as an approximation you could use the BSL). As a general rule, you get 1 degree of ramp angle for every 5 mm of delta (so the pic above showing four degrees of ramp angle would actually require 20 mm of delta!). WC skiers can sense changes in their delta of 0.5 mm, which is only 0.1 degrees! Recreational skiers that are sensitive to their fore-aft balance can sense 1 mm, which is only 0.2 degrees.

HOWEVER: The phrase "ramp angle" really can refer to the angle of anything made with a pitch, so there's nothing technically wrong with using "ramp angle" to refer to bootboard angle. You just have to be clear in how you define your terms.

ZEPPA: The internal angle of the bootboard. Because that's the key specification for a bootboard, some actually refer to the bootboard itself as "the zeppa."
 
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chemist

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As to the actual deltas of the Head PowerRail bindings:
The Head catalog says the Rally is available with either the PRD14 or the PRX12 (http://shop-us.head.com/us/ski/skis/on-piste/i-supershape-rally-21.html). The PRD14 has a delta of 4 mm (same as the PRD 12). But if Phil's demo had a PRX12, then my original admonition about the side-effect of having different deltas holds even more strongly, since their current tech info. lists the PRX12 as having a delta of 9.5 mm*!! [See https://oms-winter.head.com/oms3/techdata/printTechData.do?materialNumber=100665]
The practical difference between 0 mm and 9.5 mm is huge!

As for the deltas of the PRD12/14 (they have the same delta), with that there has been some confusion. Through 14-15, Tyrolia's tech manuals listed the delta of the PRD12 as 5.5 mm (the PRD14 wasn't released until 15-16). By contrast, I measured the PRD12 at just a bit over 4 mm (which is why I used that figure in my original post on this subject). However, starting in 15-16, the manual listed it as 4.5 mm (for both the PRD12 and PRD14). I called Head USA, and they indicated there had been no change in the actual delta of the binding. I thus conclude the 5.5 mm value was an error, which they corrected to 4.5 mm in the 15-16 manual.

*Given that Tyrolia over-specified the delta of the PRD12 for several years, they may have also over-specified that of the PRX; it may not actually be 9.5 mm. If @bud heishman actually measured it at 8 mm, I'd trust that over what's in the tech manual. But even a difference of 0 mm (K2) vs. 8 mm (Head) is enormous, and thus really throws a wrench into any attempt to compare the skis.
 
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markojp

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The PRD is shimmable as well. The toe can be detached from the component that attaches to the rail, and shim inserted.
 

chemist

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The PRD is shimmable as well. The toe can be detached from the component that attaches to the rail, and shim inserted.

Interesting! The PRD12 and PRX12 have the LX toe, while the PRD14 has the Aero toe. Is this limited to the PRD14, and is it approved by Head? Two years ago I asked my shop if they could shim my PRD12. They contacted Head USA, who said that would violate the warranty (what I was told at the time was that the only way to shim the toe would be to put a spacer under the plate, which unacceptably bends it).

CORRECTION: I Just noticed that, for 16-17, Head no longer makes the PRD12; currently the PR offerings in their new catalog are the PRD14, PRX12, and PR11. The PRD14 and PRX12 are both listed as having an RX toe (which I think is new for this year?), while the PR11 has the SX toe. But I will still be interested to hear if this shimming is Head-approved.
 
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Interesting! The PRD12 and PRX12 have the LX toe, while the PRD14 has the Aero toe. Is this limited to the PRD14, and is it approved by Head? Two years ago I asked my shop if they could shim my PRD12. They contacted Head USA, who said that would violate the warranty (what I was told at the time was that the only way to shim the toe would be to put a spacer under the plate, which unacceptably bends it).
I am with you on this one. :thumb:
 

chemist

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Just realized my link to the tech data on the 16-17 PRX12 won't work w/o a login, so here's screenshots of that, as well as the PRD14:
Screen Shot 2016-10-28 at 7.39.14 PM.png

Screen Shot 2016-10-28 at 7.35.13 PM.png
 
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chemist

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...In these side shots you can see that the PRX12 toe (top pic) is a single unit that slides on the track, so there's no ability to inset a shim there (this is also why the PRX12 has so much more delta than the PRD14 -- their heels have the same stand heights, but the PRX12 toe isn't as tall as the PRD14's at the AFD). But in the PRD14 toe (bottom pic) there's a seam that suggests one could detach the part that slides on the track from the piece above it, and inset a shim between them. But the problem is that this seam isn't flat, so the shim would have to be bent. Thus I wonder if Head will allow it. This looks like the same seam I see on my PRD12, suggesting that if the PRD14 is shimmable in this way the PRD12 would be as well. But given that Head doesn't allow the PRD12 to be shimmed, my speculation is that they won't allow the PRD14 to be either.

Screen Shot 2016-10-28 at 8.01.32 PM.png
Screen Shot 2016-10-28 at 8.01.06 PM.png
 
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markojp

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I'm a 313 BSL. In the avatar I'm on an attack 13 demo on a Monster 88. In the morning I skied a Marker Excell 16 on a Blizzard WRC.. The day before, a PRD 14 on a Head Titan. They're all different ramp angles. Only the boot was constant. Enjoyed them all. I'm sure it'd have been different if I were a 296 or less, but speaking only for myself, where the binding is mounted on the ski seems to make a bigger difference. Of course maybe ramp angle has a roll in determining those biases also. Interesting stuff for sure, but I'm certainly not going to over think things and let it all get in a way of a great day on the hill. That said, I do think manufactures should think about this more on system bindings particularly in shorter length skis.
:beercheer:
 

ski otter 2

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Please pardon my ignorance here, for things that may seem obvious to most of you. For me it relates to comparing these two skis (and their different ramp angles).

I've noticed many racers prefer more ramp angle (higher heal relative to toes) on their slalom skis than on their gs and longer turn race skis. They have to demo the boots and skis with different ramp angles to get things dialed in, whether they change bindings or not. (They will often use boots with different ramp angles for sl and gs, in particular, dialed in, for them personally, as to relative heel/toe height for each event.)

I've experimented with changes in ramp angle (relative heal/toe height) in the same boot, on the same ski, to see if I can get to know the differences in feel from this. And again, the changes in ski handling are often a lot, depending on the ski and its purpose. In general, higher ramp angle seems to mean higher leverage on the ski tips, and a less parallel or synchronized feel with riding the edges and edge shape. The extra tip leverage, depending on the ski, seems to make quick driving turns (slalom-type turns), in general, a bit easier, all things considered; while less ramp angle seems to make riding the edges in a turn (gs-type turns or longer) a bit easier - more parallel or in sync with the edges, so to speak. (Admittedly, there are many adjustments one can make in terms of technique to allow for any of these changes, in order to ski the ski well.)

In general, I seem to have found that with shorter radius and shorter turn skis, the higher ramp angle leverage on the tips made turn power/control greater, potentially; while with longer radius turns, this extra leverage was less noticeable or useful. Similarly, a lower ramp angle, in general, seemed to make it easier to synch (be in parallel) with the edge line (radius, carve, edge, etc.), and thus I seemed to like a lower ramp angle with gs skis and longer turn skis also.

Note: For me, the easy way or cheater, low-tech way to change ramp angle (relative toe/heal height) for the purpose of such experimenting was to use a cork low angle heel wedge or wedges under the liner.
 

bud heishman

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where the binding is mounted on the ski seems to make a bigger difference. Of course maybe ramp angle has a roll in determining those biases also. Interesting stuff for sure, but I'm certainly not going to over think things and let it all get in a way of a great day on the hill. That said, I do think manufactures should think about this more on system bindings particularly in shorter length skis.
:beercheer:

Good point Markojp, When testing these two parameters in my ski test, participants began playing with the skis that had 10mm additional stand height added to the toes on one set of skis and 10mm added to the heels of another pair, with the third pair stock (4mm). We were using Elan 150cm rental skis with a slalom sidecut so that all sizes of participants could use the same skis, We found that us larger guys liked skiing the 150's with the negative delta (-6mm net) and move the binding aft as far as possible (rental binding moved aft to limit determined by boot sole length). This made the ski feel much longer than it really was. Experimenting with the opposite extreme proved not so favorable.

You can imagine the noticeable contrast in body positions skiers used to adapt to these extremes. This is a key learning moment for most in the test because they realized they didn't have to think about the adaptations needed, their bodies intuitively sought balance and made the necessary adjustments. The difference in body positions were easy to spot and gave the participants great references for when they were working with skier analysis. Another interesting note from this test was the more critical awareness these skiers now had to these changes in equipment with some noticing differences in their personal quivers and now understanding why their different skis were perhaps performing the way they were.

I now prefer to use demo bindings on all my skis so I have the ability to play with mount position, moving the sweet spot where ever the conditions warrant. It is amazing how much better any particular ski works in powder when the bindings are moved back a few centimeters. This is certainly an area that begs for experimentation.
 

ski otter 2

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I sure agree about the differences with mount position, and using demo bindings (or even Schizos, esp. with fatter skis) to find the sweet spot for conditions. Weight of the skier affects this a lot, also, as you suggested. In general, lighter weight skiers seem to often benefit from a bit more forward position than heavier guys on the same ski, same conditions - especially in powder. For me, at a lighter weight, the suggested mount position may be perfect, or a more forward position may seem like an almost magical improvement, depending on the ski. And a more rearward position might make the ski more burly or stable charging. Especially with fatter skis, I experience the more back I move the BC position, the more likely I am to find the quality of a burly charger in a good ski, just waiting back there for me. And forward, I'm likely to find a surfy, more quick turning ski just laying in wait also, maybe a bit less stable.
 

njdiver85

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Regarding shimming the toe on the PRD's or PRX's, there's a guy in Vermont near Okemo that has experience doing this for a number of clients. I was going to have him do it for me, but I ended up shimming my boot instead. PM me if you'd like more details.
 
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Philpug

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Regarding shimming the toe on the PRD's or PRX's, there's a guy in Vermont near Okemo that has experience doing this for a number of clients. I was going to have him do it for me, but I ended up shimming my boot instead. PM me if you'd like more details.
I would guess Torin at Totem Pole? He is a bit of a mad scientist when it comes to skis/bindings.
 

mike_m

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Returning to the original question: Rally vs. Supercharger. I'd demoed both at A-Basin last spring (Thanks, Phil) and somewhat preferred the K2s (which surprised me, as I've found all K2 frontside skis totally lifeless for the past 10 years). Wanted to do another comparison, so I went to Loveland this week and skied them back to back. Results? A clear win for the K2 Supercharger. Notes from the test:

"K2 Supercharger (76 waist) (168 length): Beautifully smooth, powerful, great grip, even flex. Connected to the snow, but not overly damp/heavy feeling. Best K2 front-side carver in years. Perhaps a bit too firm for all day if under 180 lbs."

"Head Rally (76 waist) (170 length): Stiff and dead. Just not fun."

A few caveats: I'm 155 lbs. Neither ski was what you would call effortless at my weight, but the K2 was certainly less work. A slightly heavier skier would like either even more. The K2 rep said one thing that differentiated the Supercharger from the milder Charger (which was unavailable to test) was the new Marker X-cell binding that comes with the ski. New piston design in the toepiece supposedly transfers energy better to the ski. Don't know the mechanics (Phil?) but whatever it was, worked.

A couple of other Loveland test notes on carve-oriented recreational skis I tested: For a heavier skier (over 185 lbs.) looking for a similar ski, consider the Fischer "The Curv" DTX (72 waist) (171 length): Similar to K2 but a bit damper. Powerful, smooth, great grip, even flex. Great frontside battle cruiser.

For a lighter skier who wants a more nimble ski that still holds beautifully, try the Dynastar Speedzone 10 (72 waist) (167 length): Smooth, connected to the snow, not overly firm, even flex. Close to great, older Dynastar Speed Ti in feel, though perhaps not quite as snappy. I found the Dynastar Speedzone 12 a bit heavy and dead.
 
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gwasson

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Kind of an off topic question, but does anyone know if the Super Charger is available anywhere? The K2 website says not available online, my local shop doesn't have any in stock yet, and REI's website shows it as a pre-order.
 
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Philpug

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Kind of an off topic question, but does anyone know if the Super Charger is available anywhere? The K2 website says not available online, my local shop doesn't have any in stock yet, and REI's website shows it as a pre-order.
Funny you should ask. Excuse me while I get my soapbox....
 
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Philpug

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Funny you should ask. Excuse me while I get my soapbox....

OK, I am back. I have had this discussion with a K2 Rep. He asked why am I reviewing a ski that shops won't be carrying? I asked why are you offering a ski that you don't want to promote? We need to show brands that good skis like this need to be in shops. Start calling around..ask for the ski. LEt shops know there is a demand for the skis.

@Cheizz, the ski was designed with Europe in mind. You guys get all the good stuff. :(
 

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Can't tell you the number of times I've discussed the skis on sale here in Colorado with reps or salespeople.

Me: "Most skiers spend 80% of their time on groomers; non-experts even more. Skis that work best in those conditions are 80MM or less underfoot. Nearly all the skis you offer are between 84 and 110 underfoot. WHY?!"

Rep/Salesman replies one of two ways:

"Because that's what sells."
(or)
"Because wide skis carve on hardpack just fine!"

Drives me up the friggin' wall.
 

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