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2016 Baseball

Mike Thomas

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Pete bet on baseball, yes but that has nothing to do with what he did between the chalk lines.

First, he bet on baseball. While he was playing baseball and while he was managing. He bet on his own team in games he played in... and he has lied about it all along. The only times he has 'come clean' is when he has been forced to by overwhelming evidence. Did he bet against his own team in games he had control over? Did he ever throw a game? We will never be able to say he didn't with any amount of confidence. He has all the numbers that matter to be in the Hall, but he should forever be OUT.

I think Bonds and ARod should get in... eventually, they were generational talents playing during the steroid era, they faced opponents who were chemically on the same 'playing field'. I personally despise both of them, but with Bonds it is pretty easy to make a case for 'Best Ever' and ARod isn't very far off. Personally, I don't think steroids skewed the numbers as much as segregation did, Nobody is putting asterisks on Babe Ruth or Walter Johnson's Cooperstown plaque. Each era needs to be looked at for what it was, the steroid era boosted performance and lengthened careers. It didn't make mediocre players Hall of Fame players.

In closing- F**k Pete Rose, I wouldn't let him into the Hall of Fame even if he bought a ticket.
 
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First, he bet on baseball. While he was playing baseball and while he was managing. He bet on his own team in games he played in... and he has lied about it all along. The only times he has 'come clean' is when he has been forced to by overwhelming evidence. Did he bet against his own team in games he had control over? Did he ever throw a game? We will never be able to say he didn't with any amount of confidence. He has all the numbers that matter to be in the Hall, but he should forever be OUT.

I think Bonds and ARod should get in... eventually, they were generational talents playing during the steroid era, they faced opponents who were chemically on the same 'playing field'. I personally despise both of them, but with Bonds it is pretty easy to make a case for 'Best Ever' and ARod isn't very far off. Personally, I don't think steroids skewed the numbers as much as segregation did, Nobody is putting asterisks on Babe Ruth or Walter Johnson's Cooperstown plaque. Each era needs to be looked at for what it was, the steroid era boosted performance and lengthened careers. It didn't make mediocre players Hall of Fame players.

In closing- F**k Pete Rose, I wouldn't let him into the Hall of Fame even if he bought a ticket.
I cannot disagree with anything you said. I really don't think he bet gainst his own team, as much as he was an addicted gambler, I just cannot see that he did that, but there is no proof one way or the other with his other gambling issues, no, he won't get in. The steroid era is an entity unto itself. This era showes how broken the admission to the hall process is. The guy who never will vote for someone on the first ballot, no matter who he is, should have his voting rights revolked. Second, all of these voters knew what was going on during the era and all of their stories were publicized accordingly thus they financially benefitted from that era too. Bud Segal knew..hell, they all knew and they all profitted. I don't think it made mediocre players, Hall of Famers but maybe above average ones, a MacGuire might only have hit just 500 homers but a Palmeiro or Sosa might not have crest that number.
 

crgildart

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So, if any evidence came to light that Babe Ruth and Ty Cobb probably bet on their own teams while playing or played drunk regularly would they be pulled from The Hall of Fame? I'm kind of thinking that no ban from such recognition should exceed the criminal penalty and statute of limitation for the crime..
That wouldn't require that folks like PR get in, it would just make them eligible to be looked at as potential candidates.

As for juicing, I'm leaning towards keeping zero tolerance at all amateur levels but allowing adult pros to do whatever they can get a doctor to legally prescribe. If we lock up doctors for harming their patients by prescribing drugs and dosages which cause injuries or death that might be a better way to reduce a lot of drug abuse in society. Of course, keep the zero tolerance at the pro level for illegally obtained substances as well..
 

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I believe that Pete's betting affected the actual outcome of fewer games than the steroid users so I'll take Pete over them any day.
 

Jim McDonald

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This column is worth a read by those pro/con Pete Rose's HoF eligibility:
http://joeposnanski.com/the-rose-ballot/

Personally, I think Rose should be in the Hall, and never allowed on a ball field or in a stadium
 
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Ladies and gentlemen, I have been to the Great Wall of China, I have seen the Pyramids of Egypt, I've even witnessed a grown man satisfy a camel. But never in all my years as a sportscaster have I witnessed something as improbable, as impossible, as what we've witnessed here today!..You jsut don't have this type og game when a clock in involded.
 

Jim Kenney

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Go Nats! Now up 2 games to 1 over Dodgers in NLDS. If you can't beat the Dodgers, join 'em by hiring staff like Dusty Baker and Davey Lopes.:crossfingers:
The Nats have some fine players, but several are hurt or coming back from injuries. We didn't seem to be clicking on all cylinders coming into the playoffs, but this is our third trip to the playoffs in the last five years and it's starting to look like this might be our most profitable. Sometimes a few hot players and some luck is what it takes to move to the next level from good to great??
 
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tromano

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Nats Dodgers are very evenly matched talent wise and in terms of how they were playing coming into the nlds.

All series the advantage the Nats have had is the play from the bottom half of their lineup.
 

Lorenzzo

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Ladies and gentlemen, I have been to the Great Wall of China, I have seen the Pyramids of Egypt, I've even witnessed a grown man satisfy a camel. But never in all my years as a sportscaster have I witnessed something as improbable, as impossible, as what we've witnessed here today!..You jsut don't have this type og game when a clock in involded.
It's baseball. I recorded and finished this am. The NL series are gold. Funny how the same guys end up in the post season wherever they might be. Epstein, Lester, Lackey and Ross all have rings with the Red Sox. Same with Crisp, Francona, Miller and Napoli. In general, it seems Italians are over-represented. I guess we just populate certain things.

Part of baseball left the field last night when David Ortiz exited as a player for the last time.
 
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It's baseball. I recorded and finished this am. The NL series are gold. Funny how the same guys end up in the post season wherever they might be. Epstein, Lester, Lackey and Ross all have rings with the Red Sox. Same with Crisp, Francona, Miller and Napoli. In general, it seems Italians are over-represented. I guess we just populate certain things.
Baseball, Linen Supply and Trash Removal.

Regarding the cream rising to the top, I hit on some of your points early on on the thread....
Speaking of great coaches. Madden, Francona, Mattingly, Shoewalter...all are with teams that have were floundering before their arrivals...now are contenders. It shows how important a good top notch manager is.

Baseball is like chess, I don't disagree that the front office sets up the pieces but it is the manager that still plays them. Dusty Baker has won err was highly competive where ever he has been and now in Washington. I don't think anyone but Joe Torre could have managed that lunatic asylum of the Yankee. I again agree that a manager cannot be judged on one play but the body of the season and I think a manager is good for 5-8 wins a season and that isusually the differance between making the playoffs and not. At that point it comes down to who's pitching and bullpen is hot.
 

Lorenzzo

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Baseball, Linen Supply and Trash Removal.

Regarding the cream rising to the top, I hit on some of your points early on on the thread....
I've heard cogent arguments that managers at the MLB level are meaningless in their effect. One of the few sports talk show hosts I like maintains this. It's just not true. Otherwise, we would have stayed in linens and trash.

Managers among many other things handle pitchers and to a great extent control the work environment. Those factors can overtake everything else.

It is fun to make a list of Italian managers, and in an earlier era, players.

Some of those ex-Sox players, manager/execs were not well treated leaving the Red Sox after helping them to some championships. Must be satisfying for them.
 
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Reading through some of the posts from the beginning of the season...we have had a few people (myself included) picking the Cubs, a few picked the other playoff teams like the Mets, Giants, Jays and Nats. I missed on the Dodgers by calling them a dumpster fire, Dave Roberts did a better job there than I thought he could. I didn't go too many pages in but I didn't see anyone pick the Indians. Who are the Indians? Can anyone name anyone who plays for them past Francona the manager or Miller who came from the Yankees? Personally, I am still rooting for the Cubs because of Madden, hot Dogs and the Blues Brothers and in spite of the spaghetti sauce bread bowl they call pizza.
 

scott43

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Well we can name some Indians now because they crushed the Jays. :D Anyone see the gnarly bleeding digit by Trevor Bauer? Nasty. FYI, don't clean your drone 3 days before you're supposed to be pitching in the ALCS!! Corey Kluber, Andrew Miller, Ryan Merrit..Coco Crisp..Francisco Lindor..I mean, they made plays and we didn't. I was hoping to see Indians/Cubs. Both teams with long losing streaks. So it stands to be a great series. I'll be wearing my Cubs hat. :beercheer:
 

Jim McDonald

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Tito vs Theo? I'm going with Tito every time.
Also, where's the value in destroying more than a century of beautiful baseball history?
After a brief celebration the Cubs then become just another baseball team instead of a mythical American tragedy.
Take the long view, Go Indians!
 

Jim McDonald

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My point exactly! Who would care anymore? One of (basball) history's greatest villains is turned into just another schnook.
 
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Lorenzzo

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The key question is, if the Cubs win, will Bartman be able to come out of the Witness Protection Program... :huh:
Sox fans forgave Bill Buckner in fact made it official in 2005 after they won in 2004. I saw a commemorative t-shirt so you know it was official. Bartman however is a different thing entirely. For him the conditions are multiple WS wins, evidence of long term overseas residency and deathbed. Even then. Don't get in with a ticket, touch a ball in play and expect forgiveness.

Andrew Miller has been the best pitcher in the playoffs and Lindor is a talent. Team pitching is solid. The top performer however has been Francona. Epstein and Francona break the curse in Boston then get mercilessly booted, now the Sox watch from the sidelines while Red Sox castoffs Francona, Epstein, Crisp, Miller, Napoli, Lester, Ross and Lackey all tee it up.
 

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