$2.4mil theft of ski gear from Aspen

[Nancy Hummel]

The whole thing is tragic. I understand people feeling upset and the betrayal, but does anyone think they deserve 20-plus years in jail for this? Not sure when the trial is, etc. but holy cow I sure hope they get a much lighter sentencing than the maximum. As @James pointed out, Skilling did 12 years for a gigantic Enron scheme and lots of others that probably were involved got nothing. I'm no expert on the law, but it doesn't seem like these guys allegedly stealing $2.4m over many years from Skico deserves anywhere near 20 years.

Shocking that alleged perpetrators are in supposedly in debt. You wonder where all the money could have gone.

I don't even live in Aspen or know anything about the alleged perpetrators other than what I have read, yet the whole thing has been weighing on my mind a bit since I saw the article.

I have not heard anyone say that they think they should get the maximum sentence. What do you think is an appropriate sentence for this type of crime?
Lots of articles in Aspen papers about judges being soft on various crimes. I don't have any opinion or answers. They have children who will be without one or both of their parents if they go to prison. What message should the judge send if they are found guilty? Tough calls. I have never had the desire to be a judge because I would not want to be the one to make these decisions. I imagine there will be a plea agreement at some point.

 

[Wasatchman]

Problem is there are relatively few people in a position to commit big corporate level crime and they have expensive lawyers and shareholders etc willing to trade a fine to put it behind them. Lots of people are in a position to commit the $50k - low mills crime so there sort of has to be a big disincentive message when someone is bang to rights.

Don't have a lot of sympathy - $2.4m is still a lot of cash to pocket. Probably the guy fired shop staff for many magtitudes less.

Not saying the corporate stuff is excusable BTW just things get in a web and often there is a conspiracy through expectation (the assumption that maintaining stock price is all, or that it's excusable to tide the business over til the next period etc)

I guess. Even if you don't have sympathy, do you think the crime deserves 20-plus years if they otherwise have clean record?

I don't want to go to off tangent about corporate malfeasance/white collar crime, but I sure don't agree with how the USA treats it, that's for sure. That seems too light to me and stuff like these guys in Aspen seems way too heavy. That said, they may still get way less than the maximum.

I have not heard anyone say that they think they should get the maximum sentence. What do you think is an appropriate sentence for this type of crime?
Lots of articles in Aspen papers about judges being soft on various crimes. I don't have any opinion or answers. They have children who will be without one or both of their parents if they go to prison. What message should the judge send if they are found guilty? Tough calls. I have never had the desire to be a judge because I would not want to be the one to make these decisions. I imagine there will be a plea agreement at some point.

Yeah, good point. I have no idea either and also would not have to be the one to decide. All I know is that I don't think it should be anywhere near the maximum. Heck, if this is there first offense then maybe a year or two in prison if they agree to some sort of wage garnish/long-term payment plan back to Skico when they get out seems reasonable to me.

 

[crgildart]

They stole from rich people. They will get the book thrown at them same as Madoff.

 

[Nancy Hummel]

They stole from rich people. They will get the book thrown at them same as Madoff.

They stole 2.4 million dollars worth of equipment from husband's employer and appear to have been fairly brazen about it. Not insignificant.

 

[crgildart]

They stole 2.4 million dollars worth of equipment from husband's employer and appear to have been fairly brazen about it. Not insignificant.

When Goldman Sachs steals billions from naive investors selling toxic assets intentionally designed to fail they get a slap on the wrist via a fine for less than 10% of the amount they stole.

 

[Nancy Hummel]

When Goldman Sachs steals billions from naive investors selling toxic assets intentionally designed to fail they get a slap on the wrist via a fine for less than 10% of the amount they stole.

I do not disagree that Goldman Sachs should be treated harsher. I disagree that lenient sentences for corporations should be the standard by which others are judged.

 

[HardDaysNight]

Hang them all and let God sort it out!

 

[crgildart]

I suspect there is a bit of Robin Hood syndrome happening here. Pretty sure most folks who scored super cheap high quality gear from them are grateful they committed these crimes.. or grateful for the deals they got as a result. None of them are coming forward offering to cough up the difference as part of the restitution to Vail. I certainly wouldn't. There is equally valid sentiment that Vail's lack of oversight and accounting standards cost them these losses as much as the employees who took advantage of the opportunity are to blame,

 

[fatbob]

What VR now own Aspen SkiCo? This changes everything.........

 

[Nancy Hummel]

I suspect there is a bit of Robin Hood syndrome happening here. Pretty sure most folks who scored super cheap high quality gear from them are grateful they committed these crimes.. or grateful for the deals they got as a result. None of them are coming forward offering to cough up the difference as part of the restitution to Vail. I certainly wouldn't. There is equally valid sentiment that Vail's lack of oversight and accounting standards cost them these losses as much as the employees who took advantage of the opportunity are to blame,

My guess is that people who unknowingly bought the stolen goods are not grateful that their good fortune resulted from a crime. The innocent victims do not owe restitution to Aspen. The people who committed the crimes received the money so they should pay back Aspen.

Aspen’s lack of controls do not justify the theft.

 

[markojp]

If the 'good deal's prices were in line with used demo gear for sale prices, they (the consumers) might not have been aware of the theft. Being that they (the thieves) made off with 2.4 mil and managed not to draw immediate attention to themselves makes me think this might be the case. I do believe though, that if I had stolen 2.4m worth of goods and sold them, I'd have the book thrown at me, kid being without a parent be damned... unless I had the foresight to incorporate myself so I could be afforded all the rights and none of the responsibilities of citizenship.

 

[Jim McDonald]

Enron cost 20,000 employees their jobs. In addition, many of them lost their life savings. Investors also lost billions. Skilling and many of the company's executives had sold huge portions of their own Enron stock before the bankruptcy filing, making a substantial profit.

The above from Wikipedia, which in one section says Skilling served his time at a Club Fed on Maxwell AFB, but elsewhere has him at a low-security prison in Littleton CO

On a comparative basis, 15 minutes detention and one lash each with a damp noodle sounds about right

Oh, and lets not forget all those pensions that disappeared, ala Coach Duke

 

[crgildart]

My guess is that people who unknowingly bought the stolen goods are not grateful that their good fortune resulted from a crime. The innocent victims do not owe restitution to Aspen. The people who committed the crimes received the money so they should pay back Aspen.

Aspen’s lack of controls do not justify the theft.

But they are grateful for their good fortune. At least one in this thread bragged about the amazing deal they got on minty Kastles. I'd be happy too. Sad for Aspen but happy for me sounds reasonable eh? If a bank robbers dropped a bag of money in my yard while fleeing or someone sold me something they stole for a good 40% of what similar products were selling for I'd still want to keep it too.... Same thing IMHO..

 

[Nancy Hummel]

But they are grateful for their good fortune. At least one in this thread bragged about the amazing deal they got on minty Kastles. I'd be happy too. Sad for Aspen but happy for me sounds reasonable eh? If a bank robbers dropped a bag of money in my yard while fleeing or someone sold me something they stole for a good 40% of what similar products were selling for I'd still want to keep it too.... Same thing IMHO..

I do not think it is the same thing. Likely that many people who bought them have no idea this guy was arrested. Likely many of the skis are no longer being used. What are used skis worth at this point? Very little.

 

[crgildart]

I do not think it is the same thing. Likely that many people who bought them have no idea this guy was arrested. Likely many of the skis are no longer being used. What are used skis worth at this point? Very little.

I meant "same thing" in the notion that they/we are grateful for the incredibly good deal we got on the gear and doesn't matter mush whether or not it comes to light that it was stolen.. not our problem.. and for the exact reasons you mention there. Finding free money no one else is claiming or alerting you is missing or finding an incredibly too good to be true over a seemingly reputable platform like Ebay makes no difference.

 

[dbostedo]

But they are grateful for their good fortune. At least one in this thread bragged about the amazing deal they got on minty Kastles. I'd be happy too. Sad for Aspen but happy for me sounds reasonable eh? If a bank robbers dropped a bag of money in my yard while fleeing or someone sold me something they stole for a good 40% of what similar products were selling for I'd still want to keep it too.... Same thing IMHO..

It's very different when you know it's a stolen good, IMO. Like a dropped bag of cash in my yard? I'm returning it. Buying something from an acquaintance that I suspect is shady? Not going to happen.

But buying used skis at a good price? Yeah, that's different. If the price was too low, I'd be suspicious and stay away - but "too low" is highly variable.

 

[markojp]

I meant "same thing" in the notion that they/we are grateful for the incredibly good deal we got on the gear and doesn't matter mush whether or not it comes to light that it was stolen.. not our problem.. and for the exact reasons you mention there. Finding free money no one else is claiming or alerting you is missing or finding an incredibly too good to be true over a seemingly reputable platform like Ebay makes no difference.

You're sort of jumping the shark here, cr. There's a whole thread here on purchases/deals worth bragging about. I doubt if anyone here would be happy knowing they'd received stolen goods.

 

[crgildart]

You're sort of jumping the shark here, cr. There's a whole thread here on purchases/deals worth bragging about. I doubt if anyone here would be happy knowing they'd received stolen goods.

Especially if I had to return them and my only recourse was to try to recover the money I paid from the thief who stole them then sold them to me. That's what happens when the authorities figure out the crime quickly. If, after the fact, and after the skis were no longer of any value I'd be like, Oh well, I'm still glad I got a good deal on them, Too bad they were stolen. but meh..

 

[markojp]

.... I'd be like, Oh well, I'm still glad I got a good deal on them, Too bad they were stolen. but meh..

This says more about you than it does about others, though I'm not certain that's what you intended.

 

[crgildart]

This says more about you than it does about others, though I'm not certain that's what you intended.

Exactly what I intended. Not going to lie and pretend. If I were truly upset about it I'd try to somehow make restitution to the real victim even though I only thought I was getting a really good deal initially... but was actually a naive pawn in operation. The fact that the main victim has very deep pockets reduces the dissonance I'd be feeling over it. If it was a mom and pop shop I'd totally try to help them out however I could.. Buying a bunch of stuff from them at full retail because I felt sorry for them..