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newfydog

Making fresh tracks
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A lot of innocent, unsuspecting people ....
That's my guess.

That would be me, but hey, Pugski lost a good hat in the deal. A few years ago there was a thread and contest for who just got the greatest bargain. I posted I'd just picked up a pair of Kastle MX88 for about $165. That won the contest and a treasure trove of Pugski swag arrived.

Definitely that seller. My favorite ski ever since.
 

CalG

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We all may suffer from the "Robinhood complex".
 
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newfydog

Making fresh tracks
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Yeah, I always said, "only Aspen could have $1200 skis in their rentals and then dump them for $165"
 

Big J

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I've been buying and selling for a little while there too

gildart3 ( 1753
iconRedStar_25x25.gif
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Agree to disagree.
Looks like you have been on Ebay for awhile with lots of feedback. Who knows what would really happen. You could be correct. All any of us can do is speculate as to what may or may not happen. The seller had lots of sales with lots of very good feedback over many years that makes it all look very legit. In regards to dishonesty when there is a will there is always a way.
 

Big J

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So here's an interesting afterthought. What if someone did buy something from sportandski, how ever many years ago? Can they contact eBay and demand to return it for full purchase price since we now know it's stolen? I'd love to test that out and see eBay and PayPal's response.
Very interesting scenario.
 

pete

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Very interesting scenario.
Ebay wouldn't from my understanding have any liability. They'd have to be shown to effectively being a fence for the operation and not just providing advertising services.

I suppose if Ebay had notifications that the seller was selling stolen items, had reason to suspect and did nothing, then perhaps.

Amazon pulls counterfeit item sellers much more aggressively just for this reason, they aren't liable less they have reason to belief items are not what they're sold as.

Newpapers, pawn shops etc would all then too by same argument be liable which while they can if they are shown to know an item is stolen, aren't.

As far as returning items, their value today is very limited, insurance if sought would likely pay higher to Aspen.

If any are asked for, it'd likely limited numbers for evidence and / or confirmation that they were/are property of Aspen. Perhaps simply sending serial numbers on the item.
 

coskigirl

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@Nancy Hummel you know far more about insurance than I do but I keep wondering whether they'd actually be paid out on an insurance claim at this point. I can't imagine that they have a deductible low enough to cover a few few skis here and there which is probably what they thought was happening, at least for quite awhile. Now they know the scope of the theft but would the ongoing theft qualify as one or a few claims that would reach a value that creates a value that the insurer would pay out on? I don't know the answer but I do know that my company has a deductible that is higher than the value of my condo and it would take a lot of pairs of skis to surpass that.
 

James

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The seller had lots of sales with lots of very good feedback over many years that makes it all look very legit. In regards to dishonesty when there is a will there is always a way.
Bernie Madoff had fantastic feedback and looked legit. When things are that good, who wants to look?
 

Nancy Hummel

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@Nancy Hummel you know far more about insurance than I do but I keep wondering whether they'd actually be paid out on an insurance claim at this point. I can't imagine that they have a deductible low enough to cover a few few skis here and there which is probably what they thought was happening, at least for quite awhile. Now they know the scope of the theft but would the ongoing theft qualify as one or a few claims that would reach a value that creates a value that the insurer would pay out on? I don't know the answer but I do know that my company has a deductible that is higher than the value of my condo and it would take a lot of pairs of skis to surpass that.

Hard to say, especially since the thefts occurred over so many years. It would be interesting to find out how they are going to deal with this. It may be more beneficial for them to just write off the loss without trying to recover.
 

Philpug

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I am sure thier deductable is pretty high...would they look at each ski as an individual theft? Either way, the 2.4M is a retail number, these skis woudl have been depreciated over the course of their life in demo service along with the earnings from the rentals I doubt there is a claim to be made.
 

Big J

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Wow, I used to follow that seller on ebay. Seemed like a model seller, with conditions of the skis carefully documented with photographs, and something like 10K positive feedback (and he only sold skis, which means he must have sold at least that many pairs). The skis were described in the listings as ex-rentals, and many of them were well used and/or damaged, so it seemed like a legitimate operation (like the many other places that sell off ex-rental/ex-demo skis on ebay). Listings were almost all auctions, so they sold at "market value".

Surprising how he could get away with it for so long, and so openly.
I also followed this seller on Ebay for years. Appeared to be 100% legit. No red flags anywhere.
 

Wasatchman

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Holy Cow!

Just came across an article elsewhere about the stolen skis! I thought I'd check if now to see if it was ever posted on pugski, and just seeing this thread now.

I followed this seller on ebay and bought 3 pairs of skis from the thieves - one pair of new skis and two used all with high quality demo bindings.

The skis I bought (all via ebay auction process)

Used Head Total Joy skis for my wife: $132.50 that were in great condition
Used Kastle MX89 skis: $346 - almost looked brand new: like they had been used about 5 times or so
New Kastle FX 85 skis: $395

All prices above exclude an additional flat $35/pair for shipping.

After three great experiences I started follwowing this guy on ebay figuring going forward he would be one of my go to sources for skis. I was raving to my wife what a good source for skis at great prices and what a crazy good deal in particular her skis were. She commented they're probably stolen. I was like, nah, looks like he's been on ebay a long time. Auction prices relative to what you could buy did generally seem low, but I figured it must be some kind of grey market deal rather than outright theft. And it was auctions rather than absolute pricing.

One day he just disappeared from ebay, and I thought, hmm, maybe he's going full retail rather than on ebay anymore. So I emailed the guy's address that I had on record (he used the name DJ, which I now know is short for Derek Johnson). Anyway, I emailed to ask saying I noticed he wasn't on ebay anymore, and if he was still in business via other means such as a direct retail store or something. Never heard anything.

Just happened to come across an old article today about it and I thought HOLY COW! My wife was so right. The skis were stolen!!

Crazy. Anyway, I can confirm I bought 3 pairs of skis from this guy. Might have been more if I'd have discovered him earlier.

EDIT: Like some others on this thread said, it wasn't that obvious they were stolen. Looked like some sort of high volume professional thing going.
 

clong83

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I agree....I can’t wrap my head around the fact that a large operation did not have a tight inventory protocol in place.it just seems like negligence on the part of SkiCo’s management. Security cameras have been around as long as this guy has been stealing skis.

I work part time at a ski shop during the winter...it’s a family owned and run business, with maybe like 12 employees, 4 there at once each day. If anything went missing, the owner would know right away because she runs a tight ship. All our rental equipment there has serial numbers that we use when we sign things out and back in. If something goes missing, we call all the local ski areas and shops. Incredibly, missing skis do get recovered on a regular basis.

Yeah, that is the craziest thing to me, too. They kinda noticed something fishy was going on, so they hired a new employee specifically to try and keep better track of the inventory. The new employee quickly noticed 150 pairs of skis had disappeared so far that season. How big do you have to be before that kind of inventory loss in just a short part of your season is not absolutely crippling, much less in the ballpark of "Hmm... something weird might be going on, better hire someone to figure it out."

After that, the new employee caught the guy redhanded stealing 80 more pairs of skis. Seriously, how many pairs of skis does an average shop go through in a season? Even a BIG shop?
 

Jim McDonald

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I had a similar experience at what was at the time my go-to golf shop. Young guy got hired, very friendly, gave me a really good deal on a new driver, and later a big discount on a new set of irons. I even played with him a couple of times.
After about two years, he suddenly wasn't around for several weeks so I asked the manager if he'd quit and was told they'd found out he was selling top-end equipment, destroying the receipts and pocketing the cash -- more than $20,000 worth that they were sure about.
I mentioned my purchases, and the prices I'd paid, but the manager refused my offer to make good.
Great shop, but they collapsed when the Japan bubble economy went south and the bottom fell out of the golf industry here.
And, I quit golf six or seven years ago anyway. Need that money for skiing!
 

Wasatchman

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I feel a bit bad about the couple. Not saying what they did was right, but he co-founded the shop and probably let the operation go a lot further than he ever expected.

I am surprised by the amount of jail time they could be facing. Some murderers don't face that much jail time.

Meanwhile, lots of white collar criminals steal much more and don't get hit as hard. Pharma executives that know about dangers of their drugs (opioids) that literally harm thousands face no jail. Really pisses me off they walk away with millions and pharma company simply pays a fine, which often pales in comparison to the damage they've done to people's lives and profits they made from it.

By all accounts from what I'm reading, they otherwise seemed like nice people. So I can't help but be a bit sad that the smoking good deal on skis that I enjoyed is part of the reason these guys are facing so much jail time.

Any others out there feel the same way I do? Again, not saying I excuse what they did but I can't help but feel really bad about how much jail time they could be facing. 20-plus years? Come on man! That seems way too harsh to me for someone who probably otherwise has a totally clean record.
 

James

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Jeffrey Skilling of Enron got 24yrs, later reduced to 14, and served 12. But dozens of bankers and people from Arthur Anderson got nothing.
 

Nancy Hummel

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This situation has caused much angst in the community. Aspen is a very small place and many people at Skico feel betrayed by the actions of this couple.

I have no idea what he was paid by Skico but between the sale of the business to Skico and his salary, I can only assume he did ok.

The whole situation is very sad.
 

Wasatchman

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This situation has caused much angst in the community. Aspen is a very small place and many people at Skico feel betrayed by the actions of this couple.

I have no idea what he was paid by Skico but between the sale of the business to Skico and his salary, I can only assume he did ok.

The whole situation is very sad.
The whole thing is tragic. I understand people feeling upset and the betrayal, but does anyone think they deserve 20-plus years in jail for this? Not sure when the trial is, etc. but holy cow I sure hope they get a much lighter sentencing than the maximum. As @James pointed out, Skilling did 12 years for a gigantic Enron scheme and lots of others that probably were involved got nothing. I'm no expert on the law, but it doesn't seem like these guys allegedly stealing $2.4m over many years from Skico deserves anywhere near 20 years.

Shocking that alleged perpetrators are in supposedly in debt. You wonder where all the money could have gone.

I don't even live in Aspen or know anything about the alleged perpetrators other than what I have read, yet the whole thing has been weighing on my mind a bit since I saw the article.
 

fatbob

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I feel a bit bad about the couple. Not saying what they did was right, but he co-founded the shop and probably let the operation go a lot further than he ever expected.

I am surprised by the amount of jail time they could be facing. Some murderers don't face that much jail time.

Meanwhile, lots of white collar criminals steal much more and don't get hit as hard. Pharma executives that know about dangers of their drugs (opioids) that literally harm thousands face no jail. Really pisses me off they walk away with millions and pharma company simply pays a fine, which often pales in comparison to the damage they've done to people's lives and profits they made from it.

By all accounts from what I'm reading, they otherwise seemed like nice people. So I can't help but be a bit sad that the smoking good deal on skis that I enjoyed is part of the reason these guys are facing so much jail time.

Any others out there feel the same way I do? Again, not saying I excuse what they did but I can't help but feel really bad about how much jail time they could be facing. 20-plus years? Come on man! That seems way too harsh to me for someone who probably otherwise has a totally clean record.

Problem is there are relatively few people in a position to commit big corporate level crime and they have expensive lawyers and shareholders etc willing to trade a fine to put it behind them. Lots of people are in a position to commit the $50k - low mills crime so there sort of has to be a big disincentive message when someone is bang to rights.

Don't have a lot of sympathy - $2.4m is still a lot of cash to pocket. Probably the guy fired shop staff for many magtitudes less.

Not saying the corporate stuff is excusable BTW just things get in a web and often there is a conspiracy through expectation (the assumption that maintaining stock price is all, or that it's excusable to tide the business over til the next period etc)
 

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