10,000 hour theory debunked

[LiquidFeet]

I was raised by very strict, Eastern European parents, so it resonates. It is also why ski school directors don't have me teach kids - that and my potty mouth.

Hmmm... may I borrow that strategy? I prefer to teach adults too.

 

[martyg]

Hmmm... may I borrow that strategy? I prefer to teach adults too.

Just channel this vibe:

 

[geepers]

One of the issues that Dr. Ericsson has with Gladwell's popular media book is that he never gets into the nuances of "practice". Dr. Ericsson breaks it into two very different and unique realms: Deliberate and purposeful.

The 10,000 hour thing: as per Dr. Ericsson's work 10,000 hours was the average of practice time that elite level violinist practiced by the time they reached 20 years of age. That figure was 7,500 hours at 18 years of age. That figure was an estimated average of 20,000 at 30 years of age. Gladwell choose 10,000 hours, probably because it was a convenient sound bite, and not based on anything in particular except that it was a space in the practitioner's time, and a nice round number that would get a lot of press.

As for fast twitch, slow twitch, etc... I think that as testing protocols become more accessible we'll see that information be refined. For example, 10 years ago DNA testing was unheard of. Now, for $50, it is as easy as a mouse click. The same with nutrition. Now you can have a technician come to your house, do a blood draw, and in 10 days know exactly what you should be eating based on 40+ markers being measured.

In my case, I had to work my ass off to compete at a national level in more distance based events. For a 2 minute event I could make the national team almost by accident. There is definitely something to be said for exploiting our own unique physiology. However, when someone tells me that they can't do X, I dig. Inevitably, they never hired a coach. They never had an FMS conducted. They never had nutritional profiling. They never had performance metabolic testing conducted. They just winged it, and when it came time to do the hard work, internally and externally, they folded.

I love this, by Jim Jones. Not meant at all towards you. When I am feeling beat up, I read this. It is one of my points of motiovation:

And if that limited practice has convinced you anyone better than you is so because of drugs or because they won the genetic lottery or they have better equipment, you may be right. But it’s a lot more likely they are better than you precisely because of your cop-out opinion, because you are lazy, or confused about the meaning of hard work and diet control. Maybe you think self-discipline means drinking two beers instead of six. Maybe you think (OTC) supplements can end-run a bad diet and inadequate recovery. Maybe you think 3×8 of something, anything, is the apogee of training theory. Or maybe you think intelligent training means competing in the gym or on an Internet forum where people are as fit and capable and talented as they anonymously pretend to be. Maybe you read about a workout, do it, think it was easy and exclaim that anyone who found it hard is not as good as you. Well wake up, everyone is a geek to someone and maybe the workout you found easy has been done with more weight, or faster, or with longer range-of-motion. Maybe that named workout doesn’t matter. Maybe the person you compare yourself to doesn’t share your definition of fitness, or happiness or health. Perhaps his or her objective is altogether different. Perhaps, an honest self-assessment would reveal all of your pretense and blind obedience to a particular ideal. Maybe you need self-destruction to lead to self-creation, or reinvention.”

Funny how memory works. That bit about structured practice focused on improvement (rather than merely doing the same dumb stuff over and over again) was one of my key take-aways from Outliers.

That's a great speech from JJ.
I'd guess that very few people on this site are setting out to be world class in any particular activity. Personally I'll settle for mere competence - it's a nice subjective, movable goal post. "World class" sounds like far too much hard work and sacrifice - 8,000 or 10,000 (or whatever) hours of dedicated, deliberate, focused, structured practice at the limits of current abilities is a huge commitment. Whereas a few hundred hours of skiing with a good percentage of them focused on improvement under as much knowledgeable instruction as can reasonably be afforded seems like a great way to spend each ski season.

Not a big fan of the idea that "practice makes permanent and therefore only perfect practice makes perfect". If that were true we'd never learn anything from a standing start. My view is that it is awareness of the difference between what we are currently doing and what we need to be doing that is most important. That awareness is likely to be a significantly limiting factor in recreational skiing.

 

[LiquidFeet]

....My view is that it is awareness of the difference between what we are currently doing and what we need to be doing that is most important. That awareness is likely to be a significantly limiting factor in recreational skiing.

^^This.
I'll be devil's advocate for a moment. Trial-and-error-type learning on skis can deliver this awareness, sometimes. Experimenting on snow can lead to discovery of something that works better than the same-old-same-old embedded habits. Sometimes trial-and-error even happens unconsciously, without deliberate intent, if one skis a lot, if one skis different terrain and different conditions instead of the same-old-same-old, if one chooses to ski situations that are challenging.

Serendipity is real. Unexpected breakthroughs do happen. But serendipity can't be controlled - or rushed. It's fickle.

 

[geepers]

^^This.
I'll be devil's advocate for a moment. Trial-and-error-type learning on skis can deliver this awareness, sometimes. Experimenting on snow can lead to discovery of something that works better than the same-old-same-old embedded habits. Sometimes trial-and-error even happens unconsciously, without deliberate intent, if one skis a lot, if one skis different terrain and different conditions instead of the same-old-same-old, if one chooses to ski situations that are challenging.

Serendipity is real. Unexpected breakthroughs do happen. But serendipity can't be controlled - or rushed. It's fickle.

Yep, that's true.

However likely a much slower method compared to knowledgeable coaching/instruction. And it does rely on the ability to assess if there has been an appropriate improvement. Initially not losing control / falling over as frequently may be enough. At higher levels of competence it can be quite difficult to self-assess. And know if the new move is a feel-good dead-end vs an improvement that will lead somewhere.

Part of the xx thousand hours getting to higher levels of competence is conditioning the body/mind for the activity (flexibility, strength, speed of thought/movement) and fine tuning fundamentals - it's surprising how something as simple as basic balance keeps improving the longer we spend on skis.

 

[1chris5]

Been thinking about that rule as I take up guitar lessons. Am gonna have to settle for personal enjoyment i think.

I believe his premise in the book was
claiming that the key to achieving world-class expertise in any skill, is, to a large extent, a matter of practicing the correct way, for a total of around 10,000 hours,

world class expertise and practicing the correct way seem a bit nebulous to me.

But, his thoughts on birth month wrt league driven sport has some validity imo. You do see it in hockey with players moving up from novice, and I observed it in the kids basketball and soccer leagues. Birth month gives an advantage, whether that's enough is pretty debatable.

Good luck! I just stared piano. Apparently the 10,000 hour rule was in Malcolm Gladwell’s book “outliers” and he got the statistics from a scientist name Anders Ericsson. Ericsson notes that the 10,000 hour rule is just an easy number to use and sensationalize. He does say that deliberate practice over a serious amount of hours is needed to become expert at something. He looked at dancers, concert pianists, Chess masters etc. in his studies. He notes that to become expert it probably takes many more hours than the 10,000 to truly be great in chess, piano etc. But the key to Gladwell’s assertion is sound. In order to be excellent, you have to put in more hours than the next person; but it’s just as important to have those hours be quality hours of practice. He notes that what he calls “deliberate” practice is practicing in a way that is constantly taking you slightly out of your comfort zone. It is this constant leveling up of your ability that gets you to your goal. I found an online program called pianomarvel that helps me achieve this constantly leveling up of ability. I would urge you to find a teacher or an online program (or both) to help you Improves quickly as possible if you are not already.

 

[Novaloafah]

Good luck! I just stared piano. Apparently the 10,000 hour rule was in Malcolm Gladwell’s book “outliers” and he got the statistics from a scientist name Anders Ericsson. Ericsson notes that the 10,000 hour rule is just an easy number to use and sensationalize. He does say that deliberate practice over a serious amount of hours is needed to become expert at something. He looked at dancers, concert pianists, Chess masters etc. in his studies. He notes that to become expert it probably takes many more hours than the 10,000 to truly be great in chess, piano etc. But the key to Gladwell’s assertion is sound. In order to be excellent, you have to put in more hours than the next person; but it’s just as important to have those hours be quality hours of practice. He notes that what he calls “deliberate” practice is practicing in a way that is constantly taking you slightly out of your comfort zone. It is this constant leveling up of your ability that gets you to your goal. I found an online program called pianomarvel that helps me achieve this constantly leveling up of ability. I would urge you to find a teacher or an online program (or both) to help you Improves quickly as possible if you are not already.

Oh I def got a teacher. Will be a saint by the time I'm done with him!

 

[Wasatchman]

Does 10,000 hours on PugSki count toward anything as far as skills development? If so, I'm definitely an expert at something. Still trying to figure out what that is though.

 

[KingGrump]

If so, I'm definitely an expert at something. Still trying to figure out what that is though.

Keyboard skiing expert. No snow required.

 

[Wasatchman]

Keyboard skiing expert. No snow required.

PugSki made me realize I am an expert at offending lawyers, and I achieved it in well under an hour, so there's that.

Everybody's a keyboard skiing expert as far as I can tell, no practice at all needed for that

 

[KingGrump]

PugSki made me realize I am an expert at offending lawyers, and I achieved it in well under an hour, so there's that.

Shouldn't get too proud of yourself. The lawyers are always offensive... err, I meant offended.