• For more information on how to avoid pop-up ads and still support SkiTalk click HERE.

An Open Letter to All Mountain Bikers: "Why Can't We All Just Get Along?"

Nonmotorized access laws were instituted to limit trail access for gas-powered motorcycles, quads/four-wheelers, and other off-road vehicles that are noisy and damage trails. Other levels of access exist for such human-powered activities as hiking, trail running, mountain biking, and, in some regions, horses. These distinctions were clear and well-defined for years, until the recent introduction of a class of mountain bike that seems to blur the lines. That new segment is electric mountain bikes, or eMTBs. Such bikes have an electric-assist motor, but one that is activated only under human power, not like a throttle on a traditional motorized vehicle. Now the question is, Should this new segment of mountain bikes be allowed on mountain bike trails or limited to motorized access trails. Well, who is actually asking the question, and where does the problem arise?

Traditional mountain bikers are fighting with eMTB riders about trail access and the definition of a motorized vehicle. Hikers, trail runners, and horse lovers are watching what is essentially a spat between step-siblings. This division is just what other groups could exploit and say, “These two groups that have more in common than not can't agree on their own bikes, so until they figure it out, why even allow them on the trails?” Such results would hurt access for all MTB riders.

In doing research and talking to dozens of people over the past two years both in person and on-line, the question of eMTB access is not really even coming from hikers and equestrians; it's coming from traditional mountain bikers -- the segment that would actually increase and gain strength by including pedal-assist bikes in their numbers. I have been following the discussion on this site along with many others since I tried my first eMTB. I immediately saw pushback from traditional mountain bikers saying that eMTBs are not allowed on the trails; some even claimed possessively that “they built” the trails, so eMTB riders need to build their own. Most of this resentment has been online, not what I hear when talking to people out on the trails. For the past two years, 90% of my riding has been using my regular mountain bike, and the other 10% has been testing e-bikes to review. If I saw an eMTB, I would stop and ask about their experiences with hikers, horseback riders, and other mountain bikers. The replies I received were pretty interesting and somewhat consistent: the vast majority of negative replies were from other mountain bikers, not hikers, runners, and riders, who view an e-bike as just another bike.

This is where I believe that traditional mountain bikers need to take advantage of the strength in numbers and accept that eMTBs are here to stay. Adding more bikes and more support will make things better for all mountain bikers. We should be united, not divided into subsegments. As I mentioned earlier, when talking to eMTB riders, almost every one of them was a long-time mountain biker; many had shed their own sweat and blood (and/or money) in order to build to the trails that they were riding. All understood trail etiquette, and unless you noticed the oversized down tube or bulbous bottom bracket, you would never know their bikes had a motor. Electric MTBs are mountain bikes, and no matter why people ride them, their goals are the same as those who prefer a traditional drivetrain.

Here are the idealistic notions that some traditional mountain bikers are holding to:
  • E-bikes are cheating. This isn’t a race, unless we are actually talking about a race. Seriously, who are they cheating? If someone uses a vehicle shuttle to a peak for a downhill or even to access a trailhead, couldn't that also be considered cheating?
  • It’s illegal. To the letter of the law, you are right, on some trails. I am questioning the spirit of the law. I will be glad to have the “legal” conversation with anyone who has never gone over the speed limit, come to an incomplete stop at a stop sign, driven after having one too many, smoked something before it was legal, taken more than one when it was “one per customer," etc. etc. Plus, laws change.
  • Because they are heavier, eMTBs will do more damage to the trails. Is there a weight limit on trails? If someone weighs 220 lb and rides a 30lb bike, Isn’t that doing more damage than someone else being 180 and riding a 50lb e-bike? If someone is going to ride 20 mi, which is better: riding the same trail four times at 5 mi each, or doing one long 20-mi ride and not repeating the same trail? *IMBA study on the environmental damage to trails, HERE.
  • E-biking is not exercise. Some people ride to just ride. They are out for different reasons or may not have time for a 3- or 4-hr ride. Any, yes, aski anyone who has spent significant time on an eMTB, if they are getting a workout.
  • E-bikes are too powerful. This I can agree with. There is a valid concern that a 625Wh battery and a 85Nm motor can be too much, but rarely do most riders get out of the lowest two power levels when actually on the trails. Whenever I have used the highest levels of the assist, it is not on the trails but on the roads to access the trails. And this point can be combined with the next one: power does not equate to speed. Some cars have 100 hp and others have 700 hp, and they coexist on the roads just fine. It comes down to the operator.
  • E-bikes are too fast. I am nowhere near as fast as a high-level racer on a trail or even someone looking to beat their best Strava time. Many downhill trails easily see speeds exceeding 25 mph; eMTBs have a max assist of 20 mph. I have followed Strava times, and the average eMTB rider is not close to the top riders.
  • E-bikes are motorcycles. Just stop it. That is a response for when you cannot come back with an intelligent response.
  • Their riders have poor etiquette and are inexperienced. Most eMTB riders I have run into are actually experienced riders who are aware of proper trail etiquette. They are no less polite and are actually more aware of their surroundings; they give the right of way because they know they can restart easier. As far as inexperienced riders, I have seen more on traditional bikes in the past few months than on e-bikes. Riders in general just need more education.
  • They change trail flow. Actually they can help trail flow. Instead of someone stopping on the trail in front of another rider and impeding their momentum, the eMTB rider can actually keep the flow going.
  • You have to “earn” your way to better trail access. Ah, the hazing mentality that some riders cling to …“I had to bust my ass to get on tougher trails, so you do, too.”
  • People will be riding more and the trails will be more crowded. Isn't getting people off the couch and out in nature a good thing? Because of Covid 19, right now there are simply more people on the trails. This has nothing to do with eMTBs -- they are just an easy target.
Most bike brands are doubling down with eMTBs because that is where the industry sees the growth. Santa Cruz, a traditional and well-respected brand, just announced that by the middle of the decade, 50% of its production will be eMTBs. Electric MTBs are an evolution, just as mountain bikes evolved from 60lb modified beach cruisers in the mountains outside San Francisco to what they are now, sub-30lb 180mm-travel full-suspension mountain-crushing machines. Will the traditional riders also evolve? In skiing, we had traditional straight skis, and some said they would never use those newfangled parabolics -- but most everyone has succumbed. I don’t see the same acceptance from all the purist mountain bikers, but the percentage will be higher than most are currently willing to admit.

Moving forward, everyone wants more trail access, no matter what your preferred type of bike. Let's work to build a bridge toward a common goal rather than a wall of division, which is how all mountain bikers could lose access to the trails we love to ride.

*Added 7/24/20
About author
Philpug
I started skiing in the mid-70s in the Pocono Mountains of Pennsylvania; from then on, I found myself entrenched in the industry. I have worked in various ski shops from suburban to ski town to resort, giving me a well-rounded perspective on what skiers want from their gear. That experience was parlayed into my time as a Gear Review Editor and also consulting with manufacturers as a product tester. Along with being a Masterfit-trained bootfitter I am a fully certified self proclaimed Gear Guru. Not only do I keep up with the cutting edge of ski gear technology, but I am an avid gear collector and have an extensive array of bindings as well as many vintage skis.

Replies

I will ask again, am I expected to yield to e-bikes when they want to pass me on the uphill? Is it different if they are on trails that are closed to them?
No. I wouldn't expect you to yield on an uphill.

I'm sorry you've had such negative experiences.
 
Yeah, kinda ridiculous that someone would go to the trouble of creating an “almost“ replica of the original official signage. I took a closer look today & it appears that someone split the section of the post off with the signage. This appeared to be a new official post, ready to replace the original sign that had been broken at the trail entry.
View attachment 108765

Again, these are trails that are closed to E-bikes. The El Dorado National Forest has deemed that pedal assist E-bikes are motorized & therefore are not allowed on non-motorized trails. I believe it is a different story in Tahoe National Forest.
Is it right for E-bikes to ride these trails just because the user “feels“ it should be open to them? To quote Judge Judy, “I don’t care how you FEEL”!
I will ask again, am I expected to yield to e-bikes when they want to pass me on the uphill? Is it different if they are on trails that are closed to them?

The other day at the bottom of one of these trails, I encountered 3 E-bikers (l assume rentals) coming up a jump line while I was descending (this is an unofficial DH section where I have never encountered uphill riders), plenty of room for me to safely avoid them, yet the second one exclaimed “oh shit“ as her skill level and the amount of power she had on the bike was more than she was comfortable with. No harm done but I think she scared herself pretty good :eek:!... & I was not able to hit the jumps properly :geek::geek::ogbiggrin:.
I had to wonder if the rental shop had informed them where it was legal to ride & the possible hazards. Last summer some friends encountered a group of rental e-bikers who said the shop told them that it was a gray area & to go for it when in fact it was well known that e-bikes were not allowed on that particular trail.
Should it be the responsibility of the rental shop operators to educate those they rent to?

My encounters have still been few due to the fact that I have almost exclusively been riding trails where e-bikes are illegal.
I guess considering that, I have seen quite a few more than I should :huh:

Believe me, I am no saint when it comes to following rules :doh:
I am not a supporter for knowingly violating trail rules. I still would be dollars to donuts that shops were neglectful in educating renters where the can and cannot ride. I see pictures on Facebook of eMTB'ers on the Rim Trail and the Flume, trails that are pretty common knowledge that they are off limits. If we weren't in a covid environment, I would spend a day going into shops under the premise of renting and eMTB and asking where I can and cannot ride, my gut is I would be very disappointed in the answers...but not surprised.

From the Norcal eMTB Group on Facebook. Some asked "why there was backlash with eBikes", this was my reply...
Screen Shot 2020-08-25 at 9.24.53 PM.png


Then there are these guys...
Screen Shot 2020-08-25 at 9.25.34 PM.png
 
No. I wouldn't expect you to yield on an uphill.

I'm sorry you've had such negative experiences.
I don’t know that they have been so negative, as just different than what I am used to.

Sorry about the multiple posts but the edit feature does not seem to be working.
Also considering how we will adapt and how much busier will these trails be when they likely at some point become legal. I think I mentioned this in another thread but a few years ago all Park city trails were closed to E bikes. It came up to the city Council for a vote to decide which trails would open which would remain closed. The conclusion was that they would open all trails but only to those over 65 years old. Who remembers fake IDs ;)

as for the gentrification of old school established trails I will leave that for a different thread if it gets started.
 
I am not a supporter for knowingly violating trail rules. I still would be dollars to donuts that shops were neglectful in educating renters where the can and cannot ride. I see pictures on Facebook of eMTB'ers on the Rim Trail and the Flume, trails that are pretty common knowledge that they are off limits. If we weren't in a covid environment, I would spend a day going into shops under the premise of renting and eMTB and asking where I can and cannot ride, my gut is I would be very disappointed in the answers...but not surprised.

From the Norcal eMTB Group on Facebook. Some asked "why there was backlash with eBikes", this was my reply...
View attachment 108768

Then there are these guys...
View attachment 108769

AFAIK, E bikes are allowed on corral, powerline and incense/cedar trails in that area. all the others are off-limits.
 
AFAIK, E bikes are allowed on corral, powerline and incense/cedar trails in that area. all the others are off-limits.

Correct. TAMBA has a great page on this: https://tamba.org/trails/e-bikes/

reviewing the discussion thread, Phil nailed it as it's clear we still can't 'all just get along'.
We have mountain bikers against mountain bikers.
Instead of trying to widen the tent of mountain bikers, we are divided.
We argue over the extra weight of ebikes and its trail impact, the extra trail usage of an extra few rides ebike enable, the additional trail impact additional riders will have, and the dangers of 'differential uphill speeds'. Mountain bikers against mountain bikers. We fight each other as the sport changes/evolves with eMTBs, instead of figuring out how adapt and accommodate new riders and make the sport bigger.
 
We argue over the extra weight of ebikes
I guarantee if I'm on a regular mountain bike it will still weigh more than a slender person on an e-bike! :ogbiggrin:
differential uphill speeds
I guarantee if I'm on an e-bike there are plenty of guys and gals on regular bikes who will be blowing past me!

I've likened the bike us vs. them to archery where "traditionalists" still don't care for those who use newer equipment.
 
Correct. TAMBA has a great page on this: https://tamba.org/trails/e-bikes/
Thank you for that link, it clears up a lot regarding where they are allowed access. I was under the assumption that the Rim and Flume were off limits...and was respecting that.

I am wondering how this gets corrected on Trailforks. This is Peavine Mountain, the first image is where MTB's are allowed and the second is eMTB. According to @TahoeJim's link, it is not accurate. I am going to reach out to the local trail stewardship and ask them, very well they can contact Trailforks.
Mountain Bike Access:
Screen Shot 2020-08-27 at 8.10.20 AM.png

EMTB Access:
Screen Shot 2020-08-27 at 8.10.33 AM.png
 
I guarantee if I'm on a regular mountain bike it will still weigh more than a slender person on an e-bike! :ogbiggrin:

I guarantee if I'm on an e-bike there are plenty of guys and gals on regular bikes who will be blowing past me!

I've likened the bike us vs. them to archery where "traditionalists" still don't care for those who use newer equipment.
I was thinking about this after re-reading through the comments on this article.
  • I guarantee you that most riders on a traditional mountain bike will still pass me on a trail.
  • I guarantee you that all riders on a traditional mountain bike on a single track are far safer with me on my e-bike on the same trail than I would be on a dirt bike trail with motorcycles
  • I guarantee you that Phil on a traditional bike combined weight is more than me on my e-bike, and he's not that big.
  • I guarantee you that I'm just as courteous on an e-bike as I ever was on a traditional mountain bike.
  • I guarantee you that rude and misinformed riders exist on traditional bikes as well as e-bikes

No matter what sport we participate in, snowsports, mountain biking, hunting, fishing, dirt biking....its the participants responsibility to be educated and practice good etiquette.
 
Interesting that TNF backpedaled...
TAHOE NATIONAL FOREST TRAILS
The Tahoe National Forest (TNF) manages lands on the west side of Lake Tahoe, just outside of the Lake Tahoe Basin. The TNF removed a July 2019 statement from their website that allowed Class 1 e-bikes on many non-motorized trails. Currently, e-bike use is not allowed on non-motorized trails on Forest Service lands and this applies to the Tahoe National Forest lands.
 
Mountain bikers against mountain bikers. We fight each other as the sport changes/evolves with eMTBs, instead of figuring out how adapt and accommodate new riders and make the sport bigger.
It's not mountain bikers again mountain bikers. It's mountain bikers against motorized mountain bikes. Big difference.

And no, making the sport bigger by adding motors to a non-motorized sport is never going to be supported by many traditional mountain bikers.

The way we can all get along is for e-bikers to agree that mountain bike access and e-bike trail access should be managed separately. Simple.

Where I ride, there are two types of trails I believe should remain non-motorized:
  1. Trails that are already overcrowded, there is an existing conflict between mountain bikes and other trail users, and adding e-bikes will put mountain bike access at additional risk.
  2. Backcountry trails that have been built over decades at great effort to specifically be non-motorized and to avoid existing non-motorized trails.
I'm sure there are other cases where trails should remain non-motorized. Those are the ones where I ride.

Can the big e-bike industry and their advocates agree that motorized and non-motorized access should be determined separately by local trail managers?
 
No matter what sport we participate in, snowsports, mountain biking, hunting, fishing, dirt biking....its the participants responsibility to be educated and practice good etiquette.
Amen to that, especially when coming into a sport or activity as a newby or to a new local.
This makes me think of the battle between stand-up & traditional surfing. Look at the terratoralism in the surfing world. You better bow down to the overlords of the break or find your tires slashed or worse.
 
Clearly y’all don’t get along.
Ebikes are here to stay. Like shaped skis, like fat skis. Just wait til there’s competitions!
The protestations of moral superiority are hilarious.
 
Several weeks ago I got a notice from Strava that one of my rides was taken down because someone said that the classification of Mt Bike Ride was wrong.
Up until then I had no idea there was an e-bike activity on the list. I changed it and Strava put it back up.
The person who reported my ride to Strava is clearly a friend, I just with he/she would have just pointed it out to me instead of making me jump through hoops to record a ride. IMHO its an etiquette thing.
 

Attachments

  • Screen Shot 2020-08-27 at 10.38.16 AM.png
    Screen Shot 2020-08-27 at 10.38.16 AM.png
    285.7 KB · Views: 8
It's not mountain bikers again mountain bikers. It's mountain bikers against motorized mountain bikes. Big difference.

And no, making the sport bigger by adding motors to a non-motorized sport is never going to be supported by many traditional mountain bikers.

The way we can all get along is for e-bikers to agree that mountain bike access and e-bike trail access should be managed separately. Simple.

This whole discussion reminds me of this: https://deadspin.com/the-last-holdouts-where-the-war-between-skiers-and-snow-1835405082
Highly recommend the first video... the new spot. :)
 
Several weeks ago I got a notice from Strava that one of my rides was taken down because someone said that the classification of Mt Bike Ride was wrong.
Up until then I had no idea there was an e-bike activity on the list. I changed it and Strava put it back up.
The person who reported my ride to Strava is clearly a friend, I just with he/she would have just pointed it out to me instead of making me jump through hoops to record a ride. IMHO its an etiquette thing.

What's a "velomobile"?
 
Last edited:

Article information

Author
Philpug
Views
23,067
Comments
101
Last update

More in Cycling

More from Philpug

Top