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An Open Letter to All Mountain Bikers: "Why Can't We All Just Get Along?"

Nonmotorized access laws were instituted to limit trail access for gas-powered motorcycles, quads/four-wheelers, and other off-road vehicles that are noisy and damage trails. Other levels of access exist for such human-powered activities as hiking, trail running, mountain biking, and, in some regions, horses. These distinctions were clear and well-defined for years, until the recent introduction of a class of mountain bike that seems to blur the lines. That new segment is electric mountain bikes, or eMTBs. Such bikes have an electric-assist motor, but one that is activated only under human power, not like a throttle on a traditional motorized vehicle. Now the question is, Should this new segment of mountain bikes be allowed on mountain bike trails or limited to motorized access trails. Well, who is actually asking the question, and where does the problem arise?

Traditional mountain bikers are fighting with eMTB riders about trail access and the definition of a motorized vehicle. Hikers, trail runners, and horse lovers are watching what is essentially a spat between step-siblings. This division is just what other groups could exploit and say, “These two groups that have more in common than not can't agree on their own bikes, so until they figure it out, why even allow them on the trails?” Such results would hurt access for all MTB riders.

In doing research and talking to dozens of people over the past two years both in person and on-line, the question of eMTB access is not really even coming from hikers and equestrians; it's coming from traditional mountain bikers -- the segment that would actually increase and gain strength by including pedal-assist bikes in their numbers. I have been following the discussion on this site along with many others since I tried my first eMTB. I immediately saw pushback from traditional mountain bikers saying that eMTBs are not allowed on the trails; some even claimed possessively that “they built” the trails, so eMTB riders need to build their own. Most of this resentment has been online, not what I hear when talking to people out on the trails. For the past two years, 90% of my riding has been using my regular mountain bike, and the other 10% has been testing e-bikes to review. If I saw an eMTB, I would stop and ask about their experiences with hikers, horseback riders, and other mountain bikers. The replies I received were pretty interesting and somewhat consistent: the vast majority of negative replies were from other mountain bikers, not hikers, runners, and riders, who view an e-bike as just another bike.

This is where I believe that traditional mountain bikers need to take advantage of the strength in numbers and accept that eMTBs are here to stay. Adding more bikes and more support will make things better for all mountain bikers. We should be united, not divided into subsegments. As I mentioned earlier, when talking to eMTB riders, almost every one of them was a long-time mountain biker; many had shed their own sweat and blood (and/or money) in order to build to the trails that they were riding. All understood trail etiquette, and unless you noticed the oversized down tube or bulbous bottom bracket, you would never know their bikes had a motor. Electric MTBs are mountain bikes, and no matter why people ride them, their goals are the same as those who prefer a traditional drivetrain.

Here are the idealistic notions that some traditional mountain bikers are holding to:
  • E-bikes are cheating. This isn’t a race, unless we are actually talking about a race. Seriously, who are they cheating? If someone uses a vehicle shuttle to a peak for a downhill or even to access a trailhead, couldn't that also be considered cheating?
  • It’s illegal. To the letter of the law, you are right, on some trails. I am questioning the spirit of the law. I will be glad to have the “legal” conversation with anyone who has never gone over the speed limit, come to an incomplete stop at a stop sign, driven after having one too many, smoked something before it was legal, taken more than one when it was “one per customer," etc. etc. Plus, laws change.
  • Because they are heavier, eMTBs will do more damage to the trails. Is there a weight limit on trails? If someone weighs 220 lb and rides a 30lb bike, Isn’t that doing more damage than someone else being 180 and riding a 50lb e-bike? If someone is going to ride 20 mi, which is better: riding the same trail four times at 5 mi each, or doing one long 20-mi ride and not repeating the same trail? *IMBA study on the environmental damage to trails, HERE.
  • E-biking is not exercise. Some people ride to just ride. They are out for different reasons or may not have time for a 3- or 4-hr ride. Any, yes, aski anyone who has spent significant time on an eMTB, if they are getting a workout.
  • E-bikes are too powerful. This I can agree with. There is a valid concern that a 625Wh battery and a 85Nm motor can be too much, but rarely do most riders get out of the lowest two power levels when actually on the trails. Whenever I have used the highest levels of the assist, it is not on the trails but on the roads to access the trails. And this point can be combined with the next one: power does not equate to speed. Some cars have 100 hp and others have 700 hp, and they coexist on the roads just fine. It comes down to the operator.
  • E-bikes are too fast. I am nowhere near as fast as a high-level racer on a trail or even someone looking to beat their best Strava time. Many downhill trails easily see speeds exceeding 25 mph; eMTBs have a max assist of 20 mph. I have followed Strava times, and the average eMTB rider is not close to the top riders.
  • E-bikes are motorcycles. Just stop it. That is a response for when you cannot come back with an intelligent response.
  • Their riders have poor etiquette and are inexperienced. Most eMTB riders I have run into are actually experienced riders who are aware of proper trail etiquette. They are no less polite and are actually more aware of their surroundings; they give the right of way because they know they can restart easier. As far as inexperienced riders, I have seen more on traditional bikes in the past few months than on e-bikes. Riders in general just need more education.
  • They change trail flow. Actually they can help trail flow. Instead of someone stopping on the trail in front of another rider and impeding their momentum, the eMTB rider can actually keep the flow going.
  • You have to “earn” your way to better trail access. Ah, the hazing mentality that some riders cling to …“I had to bust my ass to get on tougher trails, so you do, too.”
  • People will be riding more and the trails will be more crowded. Isn't getting people off the couch and out in nature a good thing? Because of Covid 19, right now there are simply more people on the trails. This has nothing to do with eMTBs -- they are just an easy target.
Most bike brands are doubling down with eMTBs because that is where the industry sees the growth. Santa Cruz, a traditional and well-respected brand, just announced that by the middle of the decade, 50% of its production will be eMTBs. Electric MTBs are an evolution, just as mountain bikes evolved from 60lb modified beach cruisers in the mountains outside San Francisco to what they are now, sub-30lb 180mm-travel full-suspension mountain-crushing machines. Will the traditional riders also evolve? In skiing, we had traditional straight skis, and some said they would never use those newfangled parabolics -- but most everyone has succumbed. I don’t see the same acceptance from all the purist mountain bikers, but the percentage will be higher than most are currently willing to admit.

Moving forward, everyone wants more trail access, no matter what your preferred type of bike. Let's work to build a bridge toward a common goal rather than a wall of division, which is how all mountain bikers could lose access to the trails we love to ride.

*Added 7/24/20
About author
Philpug
I started skiing in the mid-70s in the Pocono Mountains of Pennsylvania; from then on, I found myself entrenched in the industry. I have worked in various ski shops from suburban to ski town to resort, giving me a well-rounded perspective on what skiers want from their gear. That experience was parlayed into my time as a Gear Review Editor and also consulting with manufacturers as a product tester. Along with being a Masterfit-trained bootfitter I am a fully certified self proclaimed Gear Guru. Not only do I keep up with the cutting edge of ski gear technology, but I am an avid gear collector and have an extensive array of bindings as well as many vintage skis.

Replies

I'm not against e-bikes per se. It seems like the people that don't like e-bikers are disliking it on principal. Just like the irrational dislike of snowboarders by some. It isn't the gear it's the operator.

I have not been impressed by my personal experiences with e-bikers. We don't see many on the trails because they aren't permitted. If I saw one on a trail and they were abiding by the rules in all other regards, I'd just let it go. People that are flaunting the rules for whatever reason will probably get a pass, but egregious offenders will hear from me. Again, gear doesn't matter, it's the actions that do.

When this general discussion regarding e-bikes on trails was started in other threads months (years?) ago I mentioned my concern for folks getting in over their heads. Running out of juice and having to pedal a heavy beast home without assist. I've heard of that happening due to the riders being too enthralled and empowered (pun unintended ;-) ) to note where they were going, getting lost and getting stranded.

In another instance I was driving my truck on a town road and came across e-bikes on a steep uphill. The assist was inadequate to keep the riders from weaving uncontrollably and was creating a hazard. Granted this was a steep hill, but they were putting themselves and motorists at risk with their poor riding.

At this point my personal experiences with e-bikes is small. I expect that to change, though.
 
It's interesting to see this - I'll confess I have not read on the subject on this website or elsewhere much, but as an avid all-cyclist (MTB, eMTB, Dirt bikes and yeah, road bikes) I'll just give you my 2c - somewhat contrarian, as per my usual.

Dirt bikes are not very different from MTB - when used on the single track, certainly. I'm not talking about jacka$$e$ puling wheelies on fire-roads with high noise and high speeds, but the regular enduro riders, the kind that loves the tight, technical single-track. My DTB bikes are all light in their class, 150cc, fairly quiet and since we share little trails with others, low impact.

The erosion that many point to is not that different from MTB. Dirt bikes are heavier but also use fatter tires. We tend to go more aggressive into and out of corners, given the superior traction, power and suspension, but not more than a downhiller would - you're pushing the limits of physics and the body, not of the bike at those speeds - so yes, in places you'll get braking and acceleration bumps, but not a lot more... The erosion depends a lot on the type of soil and trail design. For hard soil, you'll be hard-pressed to tell the difference between a DTB trail and an MTB trail. Sandy soil requires better trail design. And being in a club, we pool resources and have volunteers cut new trail every now and then and replace old eroded sections until nature heals them back.

As it happens, we tend to ride a lot right next to a ski hill that does downhill MTB in the summer and we do both, so I can compare apples directly to apples. Erosion can be easily managed with trail changes and trail design - our club's trail builders are good at what they do, our DTB trails look very much like their MTB trails.

Put in the simplest of ways, from my point of view, with a dirt bike, I go uphill or on flats just as fast as downhill MTB-ers go downhill, so I don't have to ride the lift up and I can go at it for hours with a big smile, to make the drive worth it, even where there's no lift. Why would they pick on me, I have no idea... other than... what, jealousy?

It's not even a price issue - you can pickup a good DTB for the same money as a very good MTB, slightly more expensive to account for the gas sucker, but you get much better race suspension and multi-piston hydraulic brakes with most DTB also, so there's 2-3k worth of the difference.

Again, our DTB trails are marked, maintained and reserved and you do meet the occasional MTB-er who looks at us funny until you point out that he's trespassing and likely endangering himself or herself, but we slow down, make room and try to be polite, as normal people would be. Same with hikers and horse riders, of course. Much like a downhiller would meet hikers in a fast sweeping corner...

It's really funny though to see MTB-ers pick on eMTB-ers, since an eMTB is actually no different than an MTB. I rode an eMTB for a full day, in the middle of a two-week MTB vacation, on the same trails and it actually works the exact same way up or down, it's just a tiny bit heavier and doesn't go any faster down or up - it just helps you go at it longer, for a lot more fun per hour! The drawback is being a little more sluggish in corners from what I've noticed... they lack the advantages of a DTB in control, suspension and braking power and have the disadvantage of being a bit heavier.

Erosion-wise, I fail to see how an eMTB would erode more, honestly... maybe marginally more, being heavier - but when you struggle uphill, braking hard into corners is the last thing on your mind and when going downhill you just can't go any faster!!!

Perhaps an issue that MTB-ers have with eMTB-ers is that it lowers the barriers to entry into the sport at a "serious" level and so you'll sometimes meet people that don't know what they're doing? Yeah - been there done that.

I do not see why, if one's older or not as fit, he or she should be denied the pleasure, just because some feel... uhh... how would "they" feel? Disadvantaged?

It sounds like the rider of a 200$ MTB would pick on those riding the much faster, lighter and better in all ways 5k$ or 10k$ MTB. They're lighter, support more speed, more comfortable and you can have a lot more fun while going at it for longer. Next step up: eMTB.

Bottom line, while I can see there being some conflict between DTB and MTB on the same trails, although not erosion-related, I do not see a big difference between eMTB and MTB. We pay the same taxes and those taxes or club fees pay for those trails, so I don't see why "you" would be more "equal" than me...

I could put up the latest Strava record and you'll be surprised to see 21kmh average on DTB. And we're not slow... if you bother to look into it, the average for MTB is 16 kmh overall with downhill sections close to our average, at 19kmh. Do I get more tired doing 16 on a MTB than 20 on a DTB? You bet!

cheers.

It is interesting how perceptions can differ. It also may be the types of trails and geology of those trails. I'll respectfully point out my experiences which are based solely on riding in Summit County, CO.

My experience in CO is that DTBs can and do degrade trails much more than MTBs. Mostly due to the unsustainable nature of the trails that were 'traditional' and 'social trails'. Some are still in service but many have been shut down. The power a DTB has can cause soil to be removed in a totally different fashion than a MTB. Foot deep holes downhill from tree roots and rocks are one example. Uphill sections become loose and rough.

We are fortunate here in Summit to have very active and cooperative groups and agencies that manage and maintain trails, shut down the unsustainable ones and create new ones all the time. I've been riding some of the DTB trails, generally in the downhill direction due to the loose surfaces and holes that make uphill MTBing the trails difficult and un-fun. As I make an effort to ride when others are not, I haven't had any conflicts with DTBs. Also, MTBs are permitted on the trails I'm on.

...

Most of the “No E bike” signs in my local trail system have been scraped off and in one case they actually cut that portion of the sign off. Of course since then some anti E-bikers have come by with a sharpie and wrote “No E bikes“ back in.
View attachment 106929

This is what the signs looked like before. The desecration is on federal land and therefore probably a federal offense! Just seems like kind of a thoughtless thing to do and probably doesn’t do the E bike cause any good.
View attachment 106930

We also have a number of E-bikes and lime scooters illegally riding the already too busy paved city bike trails.

Like I said, so far E-bikes have not affected my riding much but not sure that will be the case as it gains popularity.

Summit County dodged this bullet, probably by chance, when they built their TH markers with 6x6 posts and screwed on signs using Robertson screws. And I don't know too many people around here that have a Robertson bit in their kit.

IMG_20200726_094816450_HDR.jpg
 
When this general discussion regarding e-bikes on trails was started in other threads months (years?) ago I mentioned my concern for folks getting in over their heads. Running out of juice and having to pedal a heavy beast home without assist. I've heard of that happening due to the riders being too enthralled and empowered (pun unintended ;-) ) to note where they were going, getting lost and getting stranded.
If we are going to talk about generalizations...mine is that most the problems and concerns you are mentioning are happening to people who are renters/tourists, not people who actually own the eMTBs. Much of this stems from unrealistic expectations when renting, some might be from the shop renting or the customer not listening...I will question if many of these people should even be on anything with two wheels. I will add, we should recognize these people, we see them in the winter in Volkl Manta's or Rossi Soul 7's, you know, they are the ones that the ski come up to their chins. ;)

As far as running out of power, this is from my review of my Cannondale..
The question has come up "what happens when the battery dies?" Well, this week I was out on a ride and with about 1/2 miles out, I miscalculated what I had for range and sure enough my battery died. Fortunately, it was moslty downhill back to the house. Speaking of downhill, this is exactly what my 48lb Habit Neo 2 felt like, a downhill bike. If you have every ridden a purposely bult downhil bike, you know that have one purpose, to go downhill, even with a full range of gears, they do not climb well, nor are they fun even on the flats or twisties. No, it wasn't fun coming back in on anything else but the decents. With that said, it was nothing that surprised me but was doable and it's not like I was left stranded. Note to anyone considering or already owning an eMTB, make sure you have enough range to get back.
 
The potential problem with allowing unrestricted E-bike use everywhere MTB’s are allowed are:
  • More, hard ridden miles in remote locations (
  • Higher mileage/rider. E-bikers will ride more miles per ride.
  • Modification of E-bikes or use of higher class E-bikes on mtb trails.
The first two lead to higher maintenance requirements, but, most of us volunteer a certain. percentage of our time and income to trail maintance, so even if we start riding more miles/week, we are unlikely to contribute corespondingly more to trail maintainance.

The last on leads to increased user conflict.

These two problems are not universal or insurmountable, but they do mean that the best solution is to regulate separately. I believe the majority of trails open to MTB should be open to E-MTB as well, but at the same time, local land managers and user groups need to be able to address the specific conditions of each trail.
 
I meant to say on the first bullet:
As @tball said: more (hard) miles ridden in remote locations, where bikers currently can not put in many miles because of the time to the top from a trailhead.​

 
If we are going to talk about generalizations...mine is that most the problems and concerns you are mentioning are happening to people who are renters/tourists, not people who actually own the eMTBs. Much of this stems from unrealistic expectations when renting, some might be from the shop renting or the customer not listening...I will question if many of these people should even be on anything with two wheels. I will add, we should recognize these people, we see them in the winter in Volkl Manta's or Rossi Soul 7's, you know, they are the ones that the ski come up to their chins. ;)

As far as running out of power, this is from my review of my Cannondale..
Agreed, it is the rider not the ride that is the issue.

In the example I mentioned about running out of juice, the people were on the wrong side of a ridge so had to get their eMTB back up before they could go down. There was vehicular access to rescue them but their situation exemplifies the potential for a less fortunate outcome should they have ended up out of cell service and far from roads.

We have lots of visitors to Summit County and what we don't need are more people with false confidence on their rentals heading off into the mountains getting stranded or worse. I posit that eMTBs contribute to the false confidence that gets our visitors into trouble. Again, it comes back to the rider, but we all know how excited folks on vacation leave their sensibilities at home.
 
Agreed, it is the rider not the ride that is the issue.

In the example I mentioned about running out of juice, the people were on the wrong side of a ridge so had to get their eMTB back up before they could go down. There was vehicular access to rescue them but their situation exemplifies the potential for a less fortunate outcome should they have ended up out of cell service and far from roads.

We have lots of visitors to Summit County and what we don't need are more people with false confidence on their rentals heading off into the mountains getting stranded or worse. I posit that eMTBs contribute to the false confidence that gets our visitors into trouble. Again, it comes back to the rider, but we all know how excited folks on vacation leave their sensibilities at home.
I think we agree 100% that it is the rider this is the problem. An eMTB has a range of 30-40 miles....take out the downhills that use little or no power, that is significant range. Now, I don't see to many complete noobs going that far on a ride...especially at the elevation Summit Co is. If they can't do simple math that they have ridden 15 miles out and they have 60% power left, they better not try to do another 5 miles out and turn around now. It's no different than reading a gas gage. As they say, "You can't fix stupid".
 
This is what the signs looked like before. The desecration is on federal land and therefore probably a federal offense! Just seems like kind of a thoughtless thing to do and probably doesn’t do the E bike cause any good.
View attachment 106930

I live in that neighborhood about 1/2 mile from that sign and have been riding those trails for years, both regular MTB and eMTB. I'll just point out that writing "No e-bikes" in permanent marker all over department of agriculture property is probably going to cost more to fix than slapping a new sticker on, and thus probably exceed the $100 limit for property damage that will put the fine into the max $250,000 range for vandalizing government property. I looked it up the first time I saw that. Whoever it is also wrote it in large letters on the large trail sign at the beginning of the Gunmount trail.

As a long-time rider on both sides of this I find it hard to fathom how someone could get so bent out of shape over eMTB's that they have to do that. It's a sign of the times. Rage seems to be the new norm when confronting people that don't believe in what you believe in, even if it's trivial and does not affect you in any way.
 
I also live near that trail and ride both an ‘analog’ and an eMTB. I think someone has scribbled ’no eMTBs’ on every trail sign around here. Sigh...

I agree fully with this letter. I’m willing to bet almost all the anti-eMTB sentiment comes from people who have never ridden one and have only conceptual ideas of eMTBs. I read through the public commentary for the new BLM and Parks eMTB rules and they were wholly misinformed.
My analog and eMTB are made by the same manufacturer, weigh within 12 lbs of each other, and are equipped (tires, brakes, etc) almost identically. With my eMTB I ride 20-40% faster uphill and slightly slower downhill (more weight) on the same trails. With assistance I do ride 2-3x the distance, otherwise it’s exactly the same.
I really wish opponents of eMTBs would get first hand experience before making judgments.
 
The potential problem with allowing unrestricted E-bike use everywhere MTB’s are allowed are:
  • More, hard ridden miles in remote locations (
  • Higher mileage/rider. E-bikers will ride more miles per ride.
  • Modification of E-bikes or use of higher class E-bikes on mtb trails.
The first two lead to higher maintenance requirements, but, most of us volunteer a certain. percentage of our time and income to trail maintance, so even if we start riding more miles/week, we are unlikely to contribute corespondingly more to trail maintainance.

The last on leads to increased user conflict.

These two problems are not universal or insurmountable, but they do mean that the best solution is to regulate separately. I believe the majority of trails open to MTB should be open to E-MTB as well, but at the same time, local land managers and user groups need to be able to address the specific conditions of each trail.
To your points. I am not not sure how you define "hard" miles but your first two really can be combined into one point. One view is that if a rider is going to do say 100 miles in a month, what will do more damage 10 miles 10 times on the same trail or 5 times 20 miles? I will say add I have ridden more miles this year than I have all of the past two years. I am not sure how that is a bad thing. As far as the modding, jailbreaking? I have been lurking on an eMTB site and very little if any talk of that plus the newer systems are near impossible to do. As far as the Class II and III bikes, I ride in an area that would be a mecca for them, I have yet to see one.

When I was on a recent trail crew about a third of the helpers had eMTB's which matches the amount of eMTB I have seen on the trail, about one third, so at least HERE we are seeing a balance.

Please don't think that there can be problems but IMHO the large percentage are speculation and unfounded with regular ownership...rentals are a different story and those examples have been brought to the forefront by @Doug Briggs and @Erik Timmerman to name a few. My limited eposure to newbies on the trails in Tahoe have been them on regular mountain bikes and not specifically eMTB's.
 
@Philpug ,
What I meant is that if a rider switches to an E-MTB, the same person will ride more miles per month than when they where on a regular MTB.
I was assuming that the rider‘s number of hours on the bike stays constant. I was also assuming that the time they spend maintaining trails stays the same.
So let’s say half the riders in an area switch to E bikes. They end up riding 40% further per month.
That means you now have a 20% increase in miles ridden/month in the area. Yet, the number of riders, and the amount of time they can do trail maintenance, is the same as before, so the effective amount of maintenance/ridden mile goes down.

What I meant with ‘hard riding’ in remote areas, is that most people, if they are on a super long ride, let’s say 10 miles from the trailhead, on a 35 mile loop, they will be choosing the easier, smoother trails and fire roads, and avoiding some of the highest climbs, simply because it is too tiring or too slow otherwise.
Whereas, if they have shuttle acces, lift access, or are on a short loop from home, they are more likely to ride some very steep, technical climbs or descents.
If you switch to an E-bike, suddenly that steep climb and gnarly trail, 10 miles from the trailhead, and 4000’ of climbing, become more attainable on a Saturday afternoon ride.

To be clear, there are already people on regular bikes riding more than others, and people riding remote trails. I am also not saying that either of those is a bad thing for the individual (in fact they are improvements). But from a trail maintaince standpoint, they change the ratio of use/maintenance, and of location of use.

A remote, high up trail, might currently only see a few rides per year. It also get’s minimal maintenance, and is probably not purpose built as a sustainable mtb trail. Once a significant number of local bikers switch to E-bikes, that trail might easily get ten times the number of rides per year. That increase in use might be unsustainable, leading to a trail closure. Sure, there will be a corresponding drop in use of some more accessible trails, but those tend to be easier to maintain and built more sustainably.

I understand this is all very situation dependen, and that is why I advocate for local, fine scale, management, rather than blanket bans or oppositions.
 
And again, my belief is that on the majority of MTB trails E-bikes are perfectly fine and should be allowed.
I was only staying why I think that in some situations there might be reasons to proceed with caution and have restrictions on certain trails or zones.
 
@Philpug ,
What I meant is that if a rider switches to an E-MTB, the same person will ride more miles per month than when they where on a regular MTB.
I was assuming that the rider‘s number of hours on the bike stays constant. I was also assuming that the time they spend maintaining trails stays the same.
So let’s say half the riders in an area switch to E bikes. They end up riding 40% further per month.
That means you now have a 20% increase in miles ridden/month in the area. Yet, the number of riders, and the amount of time they can do trail maintenance, is the same as before, so the effective amount of maintenance/ridden mile goes down.
[Raising hand] Guilty as charged. [/Raising hand] I am riding a lot more on my eMTB than I did on my old Trigger. I am exploring more and accessing new amd remote terrain. My eMTB is not getting me into trouble but it will get me out of it if I get into a region could be risky.

And again, my belief is that on the majority of MTB trails E-bikes are perfectly fine and should be allowed.
I was only staying why I think that in some situations there might be reasons to proceed with caution and have restrictions on certain trails or zones.
I agree 100%. It sounds like you and I are very similar in that we avoid blanket statement and prefer to use words like majority, some and certain.
 
7CE81AC5-3A7D-4986-8203-8B421CE6EC50.jpeg

1990’s cheating with Elan SCX.
Now, everyone is a cheater.
Same arguments.
Dirt bikes with gobs of torque and power to dig a trench, are not like an e-bike.

Shouldn’t the focus be on etiquette?

Couple years ago in Montreal, we rented e-scooters. Looked like little motorcycles, not scooters. Technically, they were legal on the bike paths. Lots of fun. But, we preferred the 50cc Hondas even though no bike paths. They didn’t run out of power after a little over an hour.
 
We also have a number of E-bikes and lime scooters illegally riding the already too busy paved city bike trails.

When I lived in Fort Collins, CO, the city developed a system of paved bike trails. They were signed for bikes, divided into two lanes for two-way traffic, and had directional arrows. I don't know if these trails are still so designated.

I often used the trails to commute to work on either a road bike or my very classic no-suspension Fisher mountain bike. There would often be pedestrians on the trails, sometimes walking dogs that, in those days, they rarely cleaned up after. It was common for these people to demand that I get my bike off of "their" path.

It comes down to people. People don't read signs. People fail, often completely and utterly, to understand either implied or explicit social contracts. Or they simply don't care. Some people (too many) will do whatever they think they can get away with. Hence, rules happen. And people ignore them if there is no enforcement and no consequences.

E-bikes are relatively new, and conflicts aren't too bad. Yet. The e-bike may not cause much more real trail damage then a "regular" bike, but the motor provides a tool for additional aggression, whether for less effort getting to the top or having a little fun with the geezers who haven't embraced the motor. The latter will happen, and in more popular areas, rules will get made. And they will be ignored by some.

Today, one of the things I do for recreation is paddle a decked sea kayak on inland lakes, often with a DSLR on my back or around my neck. Many of these little lakes are designated "no motors," including no electric trolling motors. It is common to see fishermen cruising around the lake with electric motors anyway, signage be damned. They're quiet, and they aren't really doing any harm, but, still, there aren't supposed to be any motors on the lake at all. If their impact is unimportant, then change the no motors designation. If the purity of the experience is deemed significant, keep it and respect it. But some people won't. What is the best coarse?

Keep in mind that I live in an area with a low population density and, compared to Colorado or Tahoe, low tourist traffic. If I see this sort of thing happening here (enforcement is sparse), I can't really imagine what it's like in more populated places.

There will be conflicts, whether because of actual significant differences or because of irresponsible idiots, and management decisions will be made accordingly.

Can't we all get along? Because of the way some people insist on behaving, apparently not.
 
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I will add, we should recognize these people, we see them in the winter in Volkl Manta's or Rossi Soul 7's, you know, they are the ones that the ski come up to their chins. ;)

Hey! I ski on a pair of M5 Mantras. They come up to the top of my head, but still... Also, I've had several people tell me they're too stiff for powder. And not wide enough. Especially for an old guy. Fine. You're welcome to follow me.

I've skied Soul 7s, too. Completely different ski than a Mantra. And I don't own a pair.
 
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Hey! I ski on a pair of M5 Mantras. They come up to the top of my head, but still... Also, I've had several people tell me they're too stiff for powder. And not wide enough. Especially for an old guy. Fine. You're welcome to follow me.

I've skied Soul 7s, too. Completely different ski than a Mantra. And I don't own a pair.
You took what I said completely out of context ;) . I was referring to the people who rent these example skis and the shops who put them on the wrong sizes. It gets back to the people, like yourself who own these skis..in the correct size and the people who own eMTB's, they know the etiquette verses someone who is a renter that tends not to be uhmmm as aware.
 
love the open minded discussions here on Pugski... as most, including Phil know, I'm not a fan of this movement, for many reasons.
don't have time to write much, or formulate a well thought out argument like Phil's, but I"ll do a quick hit of first thoughts.
I agree w/ 4ster and Tball on most points as well,

Of the reasons listed in the essay above, there is not doubt this ebike movement is tough on the local trails. If I spend 50hrs each summer maintaining my local singletrack, an ebiker that is able to cover two to three times as much space in the same amount of time needs to put that extra time into trail maintenance. It's not happening. Trail degradation is accelerated.
Even the clip Phil said class 1 ebikes cause more trail displacement under certain conditions... like Tahoe soil.

Trail speed and speed differential is an issue for me as well, in tight singletrack, I'm going down a moderate descent at 15-20mph, while I figure an MTB or hiker is going up at 2 to 5mph, never had a collision riding, in thousands of mtb miles, since 1989... put an emtb in there, climbing that same trail, they're going 15mph up, and that changes that differential a lot... I've had 2 almost collisions and 1 collision with ebikers that have lots of power, some with low skill, control or braking skills. downright scary all of sudden in places... Phil says there are no inexperience ebikers, that is not my experience. Maybe they rode a bike before, but there are lots of people able to achieve a level of speed in areas they don't have previous experience with.
I think getting people out to enjoy the trails is fine, and less fit clients I've recommended something like the Turbo SL (lower power, lighter), but fit younger bikers are riding these things and moving really fast up hills and making the trail speed differential too high. Next we'll have directional trails I guess.

As previously discussed, the move to lighter less powerful ebikes is a good one, if it catches on. It will help limit some of my negatives, and I'll recommend them to more people who may enjoy them.

I understand I'm kind of a purist curmungeon, and even some of my long time mtb buddies are working to soften my response, but I still see lots of issues with this "evolution".

To the trails... hopefully, if I get out of this crazy work spiral summer of everyone in the world wanting to move to the mountains.. !

cheers,
W
 

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